GrayoxIs Consciousness Part of the Fabric of the Universe?
BertramDitoreA similar theory of consciousness was made popular by Babylon 5. It’s one of my favorite philosophical theories they discuss. In that show, the Minbari believe the universe manifests itself in each person in an effort to find meaning and understanding. Essentially, sentient life is as much a part of the universe’s core functioning as stars and planets. It develops as the way for the universe to explore and understand itself. To me, this concept is simpler, more beautiful, and more believable than all our human religions.
ieightpi100 percent agree with this.
i love the religion in avatar as well – nothing is ever lost, all our data gets uploaded to the mother tree when we die and are returned to the ethereal realm
What about browser history?
Imagine if your browser history was the only thing left to entertain you for the rest of eternity…
That’s Vedic philosophy in a nutshell.
Ironic that they say they believe a concept from a show more than any human religion, but it turns out to just be a rehashed belief from one of the most ancient human religions.
I hate to nitpick, but I didn’t say I believed it, I just said it was simpler and more beautiful. Obviously anything in a sci-if show is going to be fully influenced by human culture/religion. Just trying to prompt some good discussions over here.
Do you have a link? Everything I see from a quick search is talking about an old sacrificial, polytheistic religion which doesn’t seem to match
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism
For a start. I’ll see if I can find something better
Interesting but I struggle to see how this hypothesis could ever be proven or disproven. If it can’t actually be tested then I don’t see how it presents more scientific value any other religious or superstitious belief.
I could see it being used to help develop theories about the gaps in understanding we have about our universe in theoretical quantum mechanics. That’s the only field of thought that could lead to quantifiable experiments to test hypotheses.
FaceDeerI've long been fond of panpsychism, but I think it's less a hypothesis to be "proven" and more just a different way of framing the questions behind what consciousness is and how it can be defined. Under panpsychism consciousness isn't a binary property that some things have and other things don't, it's a continuum from zero to one (and if you count humans as "1" on the consciousness scale it also makes sense to consider values above that - there's no reason to assume that humans are the "most conscious possible" state of being).
So when you're reading about panpsychism and it says something like "individual electrons are conscious", bear in mind that they're proposing considering electrons to be, like, 10^-10 "consciousness units" worth of conscious. It's not like they're actually aware of themselves in some meaningful way like humans are. That's a common "giggle factor" problem for panpsychism. And it's also not saying that any arbitrary larger-scale structure us "more conscious" than humans, the way that the components of a large-scale structure interact is super important. A rock is not more "conscious" than a human brain even if they have the same number of particles interacting within them.
I prefer to consider it in terms of “dimensions of awareness”. Humans have evolved hundreds, possibly thousands, of interlinked dimensions of awareness for just about everything from colors to body language. Simple automated systems with sensors have their own dimensions of awareness, from vision to heat to pressure. Whatever it is that they track and respond to. AI, however, is finally hitting the point where these dimensions of awareness are being stacked and linked together (GPT5 can see, hear, read, and respond) and it’s only a matter of time and agency (aka executive functioning) before we see true AI consciousness.
I had a similar thought recently actually, that consciousness is more than the brain. Is gt4 conscious? Eh, I don’t believe anyone knows what that means but is it comparable to human consciousness? I don’t think so, but how could it be? It senses words, so it knows words, so it speaks words.
I hear it said all the time that llm’s don’t really understand what they’re talking about, but they seem to understand as well as they can given the dimensions they are aware of, using your terminology. I mean how can I describe anything myself without sensory details? It sounds like. It looks like. It feels like. It behaves like. We got all that knowledge by sensing, then infering. There’s no special sauce that creates understanding from nothing.
I don’t have any links but imo the experiences of people who were born without a sense, and especially those who were later able to gain it back, strongly supports this idea that something can only be conceptualized in the terms that it was sensed in.
I think the real issue is with the fact that consciousness is not particularly well defined. Something can be more or less conscious than something else but what precisely does that mean? Has there ever been a means of measuring or detecting consciousness in anything?
That’s my biggest frustration with this debate. At this point I’m convinced that consciousness is only a construct. Not a tangible entity, process, or concept, just a useful way to describe behavior. If someone describes the universe as conscious that’s neat and all, but it doesn’t really mean anything yet. And another person could say it isn’t and neither would be right or wrong, because what the hell is consciousness? Like you said, how are we supposed to measure this when we don’t know what it is? Many people think we haven’t discovered what consciousness is; I believe we haven’t decided what it is.
Depends on who you ask I think. Emergentism makes more sense to me because if you take consciousness as humans experience it, make it derivative of material structure (neurological activity), and assume the appearance of some kind of uniformity as synthesis of different parts of that neurological system, the only way consciousness may exist in that framing is in organisms that posses a nervous system.
This does inevitably leads to the problem of where to draw the line on the complexity necessary to qualify as consciousness, and im.not gonna pretend like I have the answer to that, but at least it becomes more of a scientific question rather than purely philosophical I think.
You could define it that way. I think it could be more abstract than that, personally, because
a. Is the nervous system in animals the only neural network in nature? I’ve heard discussion on the whether a some types of fungus are conscious from how they send chemical signals to other parts of the fungus. This is slow but does it count? And then there’s the collective consciousness of ant colonies and beehives. That’s a level above where each bug’s nervous system is itself a node in a larger neural network.
b. I think that consciousness is more than just the nervous system. In another comment under this post I argued that a neural network (in an abstract sense) can only “think” in terms of the sensors it has access too. What does the lab-grown brain think about? It’s never seen things, it’s never heard sounds or words, can it feel touch? (I’m not an anatomy guy). My hunch is it’s just static, essentially an “untrained” neural network". Does that count as conscious?Maybe those senses are considered a part of the nervous system, again I’m not an anatomy guy.
But then how do the “chemical computations” like hormones and gut bacteria come into play? Are they just indirectly sensed by the nervous system? Maybe I’m just informed and the senses are considered a part of the nervous system.
I’m really not exactly sure what qualifies, but the existence of an emergent system so has to be there. Does fungus communication give rise to a system that can build some kind of memory and refer to it to develop more complex behavior? If not, then it’s lacking the level of complexity to be considered consciousness. (But that’s just where I personally draw the line)
Eusociality has its own context. It’s possible for a hive to show complex organized behavior, but so would an infinite paperclip machine if it was to consist of a swarm of collector drones. A myriad of units with a set of pre-determined instructions can have complex organizations, which still wouldn’t qualify as consciousness.
Now, the brain scenario would definitely count since it consists of the necessary “hardware” to start generating its own abstract contextual model of its experiences.
A myriad of units with a set of pre-determined instructions
Like neurons? My argument was that in abstract sense, a single ant could be considered a neuron. It senses the environment and other ants for inputs, and it interacts with the environment and other ants for output. A network of ants is capable of complex behavior. By this logic of course, just about any entity could be considered a neuron, and any collection of entities a neural network, which I think is what the original article is getting at. Now is the ant colony conscious? I don’t know. Am I conscious? I think so, it seems like it. Are you conscious? You seem a lot like me, and I think I probably am, so I think you probably are too. Basically what I’m saying is I haven’t heard of a definition of consciousness that doesn’t wind up encapsulating everything or nothing, or that isn’t human-centric.
Now, the brain scenario would definitely count since it consists of the necessary “hardware” to start generating its own abstract contextual model of its experiences.
So, you’re saying that you don’t need experience to be conscious, just the the potential to experience? I’m not sure if I agree with that. Yeah there’s diminishing returns, I don’t think that an old person is significantly more self-aware than a kid in the grand scheme of things, but pretty much every thought I’ve ever had, that I realized I had anyway, was in terms of a sense I had, or at least derived from the senses. Even a newborn has been feeling and hearing since embryo. Now there is instinct to consider, that was evolved and while it can influence and direct consciousness, I don’t think acting on instinct is a conscious act itself. I’m saying, can a brain in a jar with no contact with the world, that’s never had contact with the world at any point, be aware of itself? What is self without environment?
Well, hypothetically, if someone defined the “consciousness” of every particle mathematically, and then figured out the laws that would allow us to compute (or at least approximate) the “consciousness” of a composite system (such as a brain), then we’d would have a genuine scientific theory.
Here’s another way of framing it: qualia, by definition, is not measurable by any instrument, but qualia must exist in some capacity in order for us to experience it. So, me must assume that either we cannot experience qualia, or that qualia exists in a way we do not fully understand yet. Since the former is generally rejected, the latter must be true.
You may argue that neurochemical signals are the physical manefestation of qualia, but making that assumption throws us into a trap. If qualia is neurochemical signals, which signals are they? By what definition can we precisely determine what is qualia and what is not? Are unconscious senses qualia? If we stimulated a random part of the brain, unrelated to the sensory cortex, would that create qualia? If the distribution of neurochemicals can be predicted, and the activations of neurons was deterministic as well, would calculating every stimulation in the brain be the same as consciousness?
In both arguments, consciousness is no clearer or blurrier,
So our subjective experience must “exist” because we experience it? This seems rather circular. My personal take, consciousness is an artifact of how our brains work. It’s not a thing that exists in any physical sense, it is simply part of the model our brain structures the stimulation it receives throughout the course of our lives.
All of science is based on the assumption that what is observed and experienced exists. You cannot gather data without at some point experiencing some representation of that data. In this sense, qualia is the most real thing possible, because experience is the essence of evidence.
So how do you measure qualia? What is it made of? How is it actually defined? How do you detect if qualia is present in something Internet than your own head?
I stand by my statement that qualia is simply an artifact of our cognitive architecture. You are welcome to disagree but the arguments you are presenting fail to convince me in the slightest.
“We decide that it exists so it exists” is a terrible argument.
Consequently, there’s no “trap” in attributing it to neurochemical signals. Emergence is a known phenomenon, and it’s present everywhere. Asking “which signal is qualia” is as nonsensical as asking “which atom is a star” or “which transistor is the video on my phone”. It’s a deflection and misdirection.
I get it, people want to feel magical. But there’s a name to magic that works - science. Neurochemical processes are no less magical than some untestable source of experiences, with one big difference - they demonstrably exist.
I’m not sure I entirely understand your argument. “We decide it exists, therefore it exists” is the basis of all science and mathematics. We form axioms based on what we observe, then extrapolate from those axioms to form a coherent logical system. While it may be a leap of logic to assume others have consciousness, it’s a common decency to do that.
Onto the second argument, when I mean “what signal is qualia” I’m talking about what is the minimum number of neurons we could kill to completely remove someone’s experience of qualia. If we could sever the brain stem, but that would kill an excess of cells. We could kill the sensory cortex, but that would kill more cells than necessary. We could sever the connection between the sensory cortex and the rest of the brain, etc. As you minimize the number of cells, you move up the hierarchy, and eventually reach the prefrontal cortex. But once you reach the prefrontal cortex, the neurons that deliver qualia and the neurons that register it can’t really be separated.
Lastly, you said that assuming consciousness is some unique part of the universe is wrong because it cannot be demonstrably proven to exist. I can’t really argue against this, since it seems to relate to the difference in our experience of consciousness. To me, consciousness feels palpable, and everything else feels as thin as tissue paper.
Science is built upon repeatable experiments that can be used to test hypotheses. It is not built on axioms and logical extrapolation- those are used to form new hypotheses but they are insufficient by themselves. We don’t decide something exists, we hypothesize that it exists and make predictions based on that hypothesis. If experimental results line up with our predictions then we call that a theory. If new data contradicts the theory or hypothesis then we revise and try again.
i think that would be beautiful. [at the good times at least] being alive feels too special for it to just be some chemicals knocking about in the head, then you die and it stops
there’s so much we don’t know or understand about the world still – imagine how INSANE the internet or even TV would be to people in the 1700s. what if there are secret frequencies for the soul?
OnopordumAcanthiumYes, the big majority of people from that time wouldn’t even grasp the concept of our technology today. So we really should be humble and open minded. We are not “just chemicals”, since chemicals are made of particles that are probably infinitely small.
Since matter is energy, we are energy. Or chemicals. Or matter. There is one answer but multiple as well at the same time. Our reality amazes me sometimes.
Grammaton ClericConscienceness is a human concept, just like the concept of time.
Neatojust like the concept of time.
Time is absolutely real. Physicists do not debate this with any merit. The book "The Secret" popularized the idea that physicists proved that time didn't exist but that book is cover-to-cover lies and mysticism.
The second law of thermodynamics has time as an integral component. If scientists didn't believe time existed or mattered, I doubt that'd be the case. There's lots and lots and lots of examples of this, that one is just the most poignant.
There's lots of things we don't understand about time, just like there's tons of things we don't understand about dark matter, gravity, and particle physics.
Everything you just said was a human creation 😂
Ah, this old chestnut.
So what you're saying is nothing is real because it's all through our perceptions. So you do what? Ignore your senses? Ignore the reality and pretend it is what you want it to be? Curl up and die?
No. You exist through your senses and try to make sense of the world around you through them. All our senses (not yours, clearly) are telling us that time exists. Everything we experience and see is added to the catalogue of knowledge on how the universe works. And everything points to laws that indicate that time exists. We experience it and we see non-human matter experience it.
This is akin to saying gravity doesn't exist or the sun doesn't exist. Cool story, bro. Doesn't change a damn thing about how we live our lives. Can't float. Still need sunscreen. Time moves on.
Causality exists, time is just how humans measure the passage of causes and effects. The rest is just human inventions that measure human perception; gravity exists, but the usage of Gs is man-made.
All of our sense tell us that we exist in three dimensions, and yet the mathematics around black holes seems to suggest that all information can be encapsulated in only two dimensions. There was a theory I read about year ago, something about a “holographic universe” which put forth the idea that we technically are two dimensional, existing on the walls of the universe, but our senses interpret this as three-dimensional space.
The point being – we already ready know it’s a fact that we cannot always trust our senses, and that our senses can lie to us when struggling to make sense of the information. If we can’t even be certain that we actually exist in three dimensions then you can’t really discount the “possibility” that our conscience might be linked to something we’re not aware of. Hell there are STILL people who claim gravity and a spherical Earth aren’t real.
SuiXi3DTime is absolutely real, but our perception of it is incredibly limited.
No, it’s not. Next question…
Seriously though, doesn’t basically every experiment in brain surgery and neuroscience disprove this idea? We know how different structures in the brain contribute to consciousness. We can’t explain the mechanism 100%, but that doesn’t mean that every piece of matter secretly has some consciousness embedded in it. It’s God of the Gaps nonsense.
I’m not against posting stuff like this. Obviously serious people take this idea seriously. Just none of the people taking it seriously study brains.
Well, we know that the simple fact of observing an event changes it (see the Double Slit experiment), so consciousness has to have some kind of link to reality itself, no?
We currently do not know what consciousness even is exactly, and we know only about the human consciousness, but there can be other degrees of consciousness within other particles in the universe.
And even if current-day experiments disprove something, that doesn't mean it will in the future, just like before Einstein's laws of relativity proved that gravity bends spacetime and that it is relative according to the point of observation.
And I'm sure people that study neuroscience ask this same question from time to time. It's a scientist's duty to find the factual truth about things, even if they disprove everything they know so far. We can't rule out something as impossible just because we haven't observed it yet, as it would directly contradict the scientific method, and therefore cease to be science.
Well, we know that the simple fact of observing an event changes it (see the Double Slit experiment), so consciousness has to have some kind of link to reality itself, no?
I think you might be misunderstanding what “observation” means in that context.
In physics, the observer effect is the disturbance of an observed system by the act of observation. This is often the result of utilizing instruments that, by necessity, alter the state of what they measure in some manner.
Thank you for explaining this.
Your opening statement is incorrect. Observation in the quantum mechanics sense does not have anything to do with consciousness. Observation is really just a form of interaction.
We can’t rule out something as impossible just because we haven’t observed it yet, as it would directly contradict the scientific method
Figuring out what’s possible versus impossible isn’t really part of the scientific method. The scientific method is about collecting and interpreting evidence. Where is the evidence that particles are conscious?
Until there is a testable hypothesis, panpsychism doesn’t have anything to do with science.
Others in this thread have already explained that consciousness doesn’t play any role in the double slit experiment. I definitely understand your confusion there. I believed the same thing at one point. It doesn’t help that some people purposely spread that false interpretation of the experiment because it’s more interesting than reality.
SemperverusIt would help if we started explaining that an “observer” in quantum mechanics is another singular quantum particle like an electron or a photon. To “observe” means to collide or entangle.
I mean no? Where did you get we have any ide how consciousness works at all? We have no idea what structures on the brain have anything to do with it, or if they have anything to do with it at all.
We know about brain structures shaping our personalities, memories and senses. But that’s not consciousness. Not at all.
Perhaps that is the misunderstanding?
Consciousness is awareness, experience. It’s the “observer” under the experience. THAT is a mystery, that is the hardest problem in science. Not “where in the brain do we process sadness?”…
Is your point that memory, emotions, and sensory input don’t have anything to do with consciousness?
What exactly is consciousness doing without sensory input to process and memory to give those inputs context?
Why do you think “awareness” of sights and sounds is separate from the parts of the brain that process those sights and sounds?
When you look through a microscope, or hear music through headphones, are you those tools? Or are you the thing that hears and sees?
How can you “have” emotions? When you try to reach the baseline of your experience, when you try to find the thing that experiences reality, what do you think you’ll find?
when you try to find the thing that experiences reality, what do you think you’ll find?
Grey goo, a network of neurons, a brain. You can literally inject chemicals into your body that change your emotions and consciousness. Physical things can interrupt my consciousness, so why would you assume consciousness is not a physical phenomenon?
When I look through a microscope, photons go through the lens of the microscope, then similarly go through the lens of my eye. My retina absorbs those photons and translates them into action potentials a.k.a. chemical/electrical signals. Those action potentials reach my occipital lobe (going through some synapses as purely chemical signals) where they interact with other action potentials from other parts of my brain, and I have the experience of seeing an image.
If my occipital is not the final destination of these signals, then what is? Where does the information go after it’s processed by my brain?
Altering or tinkering with the substrate will of course alter the ”functioning” of consciousness. This does nothing to demystify or explain its existence; it only proves that it “utilizes” or depends on that substrate.
If you remove the hands of a brilliant guitarist, you haven’t “proven” that musicality is purely a function of hand structure/mechanics.
It’s like when you wonder aloud as a kid “Why is there something rather than nothing?” and someone says “The big bang.”
At least “it’s a stupid, meaningless question” shows they considered it.
What exactly is the brain the substrate for? All evidence up to this point indicates that the brain is the thing doing the thinking and feeling.
Without some seriously compelling evidence to the contrary, I’m going to assume you’re talking about a soul or some other supernatural idea.
In your example of the guitarist, where would you say musicality actually comes from? I would say the brain, because there is plenty of evidence that brains exist and can be creative.
What exactly is the brain the substrate for?
That’s the question, isn’t it!
I’m not ascribing anything unknown (for now!) to anything magical, I’m simply convinced that remaining agnostic on these ideas is the only honest position to occupy at this time.
For now, we simply do not know the origins of consciousness. Certainly the brain is at the center of it all, literally, but much of “what it’s up to” remains a mystery when it comes to consciousness. Trying to nail it all down (at this point) to biology+physics+whatever reminds me of that old cartoon of a defeated-looking man staring at a giant chalkboard filled with elaborate equations, parted down the middle by the phrase, “and then a miracle occurs…”
Trying to nail it all down (at this point) to biology+physics+whatever
If the stuff happening inside your body can’t be “nailed down” by biology+physics+whatever, then you’re talking about magic whether or not you call it magic.
“What is the brain the substrate for?” Is not a good question to ask because it assumes there is some unknown invisible force acting on the neurons in our heads. Neurons come from an egg fertilized by a sperm, just like every other cell.
Should we ask what the balls are a substrate for, since they are creating the sperm that will one day have consciousness?
(PS thank you for the discussion. It’s all in fun and I think this is genuinely interesting.)
I can see how magic appears to be creeping in!
When I think of “magic” in this context, it’s the kind of magic that a citizen of the Roman Empire might see at work in viewing a Facetime call on an iPhone. I think the wall we hit in trying to unpack and nail down consciousness is a similar impediment; we simply lack the knowledge, understanding, context, and even language (at least so far) to begin to address it directly.
We are smart enough to get these questions, but not yet able to answer them. I don’t think that means we must somehow use our current understanding of a thing to arrive at comforting explanations; instead, I think that this question in particular is forcing us to admit We Don’t Know…and can’t even fathom what it might take to actually nail it down. The black and white/color thought experiment is a beautiful allusion to what this unknowing is like, and I think that’s where we must be comfortable sitting, at least for now!
(PS agreed! Love me a good thoughtful disagreement)
I don’t think that means we must somehow use our current understanding of a thing to arrive at comforting explanations; instead, I think that this question in particular is forcing us to admit We Don’t Know.
Ok, obviously we don’t know the exact mechanism of consciousness and thoughts, no argument there.
You think the belief that my entire self is nothing but a gooey grey organ inside my skull that can be irrevocably damaged by slipping on the floor is comforting?!
Our current understanding of a thing is an interesting way to phrase this. I would argue that our current understanding of a thing is literally the only way we can meaningfully study something. We start with our best current model and go from there. Of course there are sometimes paradigm shifts and big discoveries that seem to come from nowhere, but those are rare, and generally still fit into a wider model for how the universe works. If you don’t understand how some function of the brain works, you shouldn’t jump to the assumption that biology can’t provide an answer. I’m not saying our neurons can’t be the receivers for some extra-dimensional consciousness radio, I’m just saying use Occam’s Razor.
You seem to be looking at the explanation of consciousness the way people looked at the explanation for the inheritance of traits from parents before we knew anything about genetics: a complete mystery. I think the current neuroscience on consciousness is closer to how we were dealing with genetics in the 40s: we knew there was genetic material, we were looking for it, we just didn’t know exactly what it was (DNA). The problem with consciousness is that it isn’t a single thing. It’s a process, so until we nail down every individual step of the process, there will always be people saying that the part we don’t understand yet is the part that can’t be explained by biology.
Have you seen/heard this? npr.org/…/how-the-brain-processes-music-with-a-li…
I think you’ve made some assumptions about my position on this…my sense is that we are essentially in agreement, I’m just a bit more willing to stand in the “we simply don’t know…yet” column?
Yes it deserves study, yes I believe it’s a matter of us not understanding what’s what (and how), not “and then god” or something silly.
Did anybody read it to the end? I found myself wondering how many vegans were at the conference around the time they were talking about fish.
notexecutiveConciousness is just an emergent property of the multiple parts of the brain trying to interpret and respond to its surroundings.
Edit: I stand by what I said, but you all don’t need to be so mean and vile about it…
Wow. I'm glad you figured that out. I thought it was going to be so much more difficult.