Lee DunaHere are the details on the grisly deaths of Elon Musk’s Neuralink monkeys
maegul (he/they)So I think people here need to be mindful of how much they don’t know about animal testing, how easy it is for the topic of animal testing to become inflammatory and how much musk-hate makes that even more likely.
Animal testing and experimentation is happening all over the place. And in such work accidents to happen, as with any surgery. And a common measure to prevent suffering is to euthanise. In fact I think euthanasia is prescribed so often that it’s controversial, but you should keep in mind that any animal experimentation setup is likely to have an intentionally antagonistic relationship between experimenters and animal carers and ethicists.
There are groups deeply and actively opposed to animal experimentation of any sort and will infiltrate and target labs and try to expose them any way they can. There’s a real chance that something like that is behind these revelations. Point is that it’s often not objective and misleads you into thinking the targeted lab is particularly bad when it’s actually just a selected target for political reasons.
All of which is NOT to condone animal experimentation (I’m a vegan for example). But you really should be mindful of how dumb media hype around this issue can be.
If you’re outraged for instance, when was the last time you ate meat and how well do you think that animal was treated both before it’s killing and even during? Better than the monkey in this story? Hell, when was the last time you ran over an animal in your car and did you really need to be driving at all? Did that animal die peacefully? Did you even realise?
How many benefits come to both humanity and animals too from progress from animal experimentation and is that worth some of the mistakes and suffering caused?
These are some of the better thoughts IMO, where musk hate is really not relevant here. From what I could tell from the article, it did not seem odd at all. If you care about animals, take the issue seriously and don’t make it about one very famous person who’s cool to hate right now. Animals, and humanity, frankly deserve better.
NuPNuAIf I haven’t eaten meat for over 20 years and don’t drive can I continue to take the moral highground on testing?
If you never use medicine that was developed with the help of animal testing I guess you could. If you do use pretty much any kind of antibiotics though, or are unfortunately diabetic and have to use insulin, then it would be pretty hypocritical.
I think part of my general point was that seeking “moral high grounds”, at least as a judgmental behaviour, is a trap and can be dumb and can be part of the problem.
In a world rife with deferred ethics, I’d argue moral high ground urges and behaviours are an opiate to help us cope with the realities and difficulties of issues.
I also haven’t eaten meat or animal products or driven or owned a car for a while, but personally, I’m wary of wanting to take moral high grounds or being too judgmental of those who eat meat or believe in animal testing to progress medical science. I don’t think it helps the issue, argument or any animals frankly.
IMO, to get people to be better at empathy, you have to start with empathy. And then, if someone turns out to be a cunt, then well, call 'em what they are.
Otherwise, beyond all that, I personally am really not sure focusing on animal testing makes any sense if you care about the general state of animal welfare and the way humans treat animals. I personally suspect scientists in lab coats make an easy scarecrow with some subtle prejudices creeping in, and kinda probably judge people would prefer to target testing rather than the animal farming industry and the industries that destroy habitats. Outside of scientific research though, yea animal testing is probably complete trash.
As for my view on animals in scientific research, I think the whole thing could do with a pretty significant clean up where the model of scientific practice is probably in need of reform to be more efficient. Awkwardly, I suspect the scientific industry would find this difficult and for entirely shitty reasons.
Generally, I’m personally not sure where I stand on whether any animal experimentation is justified, but I’d bet much of what does happen is not entirely justifiable at all.
Very well said. As a fellow vegan I wish more of us took an approach like this. Too often I see the militant side focused on shaming and I don’t think that works. It raises people’s defences, gives the movement a bad name, and puts them in fight or flight mode.
ShalakushkaYou can have a moral high ground either way. It would be impossible to live in such a way that you are totally free of hypocrisy and anything someone could possibly criticize you for, which is what these people are basically asking in bad faith. They are saying you would have to live an impossible life because they do not want a moral high ground to exist at all. Just because we do not always meet our ideals does not mean we cannot have ideals, or that we cannot note when those ideals have not been met in others. I have not lived a 100% violence free life, but that isn't necessary to call out something like a murder.