š¦ OneRedFox š¦Against Masculinity
LmaydevI recently struggled with gender identity. I thought maybe I was non-binary for a while.
But Iāve come to realise Iām just a guy that looks certain things the would be considered feminine and my dadās toxic masculinity made me feel that was wrong.
Once I identified the influences in my life that made me feel that way it is much easier to be myself.
I love my beard and my penis. But also my curly ringlets on my hair and painting my toe nails.
Congrats on figuring yourself out; for many in your situation it can be a difficult journey. I imagine that as the left takes more cultural victories, terms like masculine and feminine will lose their meaning and people will be able to choose their interests more freely without judgement.
CyberGhost@OneRedFox @Lmaydev I hope so, I really hated those terms. Those terms strip out individuality for the sake to conform to stereotypes.
True, and theyāre completely arbitrary as well. Traditionally masculine and feminine activities can vary heavily between cultures.
Thank you my friend. It certainly wasnāt easy. But I was in therapy for other stuff already and that gave me a safe space to explore it.
Yeah I can still remember years ago my daughter getting really upset because she wanted a robot but it was in with the boys toys.
Itās not the easiest thing to explain to a child when the stereotypes are forced down their throat by TV and older family members.
Luckily the media (some elements anyway) are getting much better and breaking that divide now.
I temporarily ended my exodus from American entertainment media a couple years ago to watch Steven Universe and I couldnāt imagine such a show existing when I was a child. I can definitely agree that theyāve gotten better about gender stuff and emotional intelligence.
I think to many, these terms have lost their meaning already. I personally never really used them, nor do most of the people I know. People are just people. The only place I see this distinction so strongly made is in media, and only certain kinds of media. Iām sure though that this doesnāt represent everyoneās experience, or every location, I just wanted to share that I think in some places this is already fairly well accepted.
Iāve had some great role models as a kid who were both biologically female and male, but the things they taught had nothing to do with gender. We have ātheyā, but I wish we had a better singular gender neutral pronoun in English. āTheyā can be confused with plural and āitā can sound very rude. I guess distinguishing between singular and plural isnāt criticalā¦ I just wish we had the ability to invent a new useful word and have it be widely accepted. So much of our society runs on precident and momentum sadly.
LallyLuckFarmAt the risk of coming across as argumentative - I canāt reconcile the idea that every group except boys benefit from positive role models that help young people see their potential. Iāve known too many people whoāve benefitted from seeing POC or genderqueer people represented positively to believe otherwise, and Iāve seen it in my nieces when they find out that women are professionals in a field that interests them and they donāt have to give it up because āitās a boy jobā.
Breaking down unhealthy gender stereotypes is an important job we all have to pitch in with, but
Young men do not need a vision of positive masculinity
feels like ceding all interpretations of masculinity to those who promote the kind of Gender Equity Reactionary Masculinity that came about in the later part of the 19th century which we now know as toxic masculinity. (Seriously though, itās behaviors and attitudes that have been promoted for barely over a century that eschewed actual traditionally masculine things like flower arranging, social sensitivity, and generally not being boorish.) If weāre not willing or able to define positive masculinity for the next generations, weāre likely to see more instances of the negative variety while possessing fewer tools to help offramp people from toxic behaviors to prosocial ones.
I mean, Iām a cis het white guy who enjoys wearing clothes that are cut for women. I do flower arrangements, and whenever Iām gardening somewhere public hand cut flowers to little girls and little boys and children who might not self identify along that paradigm. I wear flowers in my hair, or weave them into my hats. I am unafraid to use my dude voice or stature/build in defense of others. I will tell you Iām living my best life as a disney princess when Iām carrying baby animals around. All of these things help to define my masculinity rather than dilute it, and thatās not to say that others might do the same things and have it reinforce their identity as feminine, or androgynous, or however they identify.
dumplesAt the risk of coming across as argumentative - I canāt reconcile the idea that every group except boys benefit from positive role models that help young people see their potential.
I think this is a good point that there should needs to be more positive male roles models. However, I think the article shows that we really need positive role models that are define beyond masculine and feminine traits. I think the reason that there is such difficulty is defining either of these terms was that they were defined as opposites of each other. So there is difficulty in getting valid definitions since all people have combinations of both of these traits together regardless of gender. We really should focus on universal value sets that are valid regardless of gender. I think this article could have better identified that there shouldn't be any gendered values such as these
I agree, more role modeling of universal Good Personā¢ traits is fundamentally necessary in breaking down gender stereotypes.
But like, tell me that thereās little value in a young man seeing another older man treat another person equitably and respectfully and having it explained as āthe manly thing to doā and Iām gonna check out. Sometimes we have to tailor our language to meet the needs of the learner and weāre not gonna get there giving regressive folks full reins of what words mean.
I agree. I think there should be a better definition. I would suggest up Terry Crews as my definition of positive male role model.
I think heās a great example of someone who embodies a better definition!
After thinking about this I think a lot of the traditional masculine values can be positive if defined the correct way. I'm sure any traditionally conservative men would say that Self Sufficiency is a valuable trait. But defining it as being able to cook, clean, change a diaper, etc it would be a more positive. Same with as a defender but define it as protecting minorities and those less fortunate instead of being able to kill a threat. These should be done and used
Totally agreed here. Paraphrasing a conversation my wife watched a video of a while back:
Traditionalist: āmen should be supporting their family. If youāre a stay at home dad, youāre not a real manā
Guy being attacked: āI support my wifeās professional aspirations, I support my kidsā educations by being there to get them ready for school, by helping with homework, and by providing them with healthy home cooked food to support their physical and mental needs. I support them when theyāre sad, I support them when theyāre angry. I support their confidence by telling them how amazing they are. All youāre doing is bringing home money, and thatās a weak show of supportā
Exactly. You're supporting your family is everyway
I canāt reconcile the idea that every group except boys benefit from positive role models that help young people see their potential.
The article isnāt arguing against having role models; itās questioning why they have to be masculine specifically when desirable characteristics among people are largely gender neutral. To quote a relevant portion:
To which Iād answer: why the hell do you need specifically masculine role models? My personal ārole modelsā (to the extent I have any, which I actually try not to) are Emma Goldman (whom Iāve been told I resemble), Thomas Paine, Noam Chomsky, Angela Davis, Murray Bookchin, Hubert Harrison, Eugene Debs, Vera Brittain, A. Philip Randolph, Rose Pesotta, Dorothy Day, Paul Robeson, Aneurin Bevan, Shirley Chisholm, George Orwell, Martin Luther King Jr., Ursula K. Le Guin, and Ella Baker. These people all share traits I respect: courage, moral integrity, perceptiveness, commitment, strength in the face of hostility. Brittain was a pacifist horrified by war who nevertheless devoted herself in World War I to tending to men gruesomely wounded on the battlefield. Bevan rose from working in Welsh coal mines to become Minister of Health in the postwar British Labour government, where he started the National Health Service. This week Iāve been admiring Rashida Tlaib, the Palestinian-American congresswoman who had the guts to stand up against most of the members of her party and tell the truth about the apartheid in Palestine. Emba and Reeves worry that young boys donāt have good examples of people they should try to be like. I say let them admire Rashida.
I just canāt imagine thinking about masculinity or femininity in deciding whom to look up to. What kind of young man fears having a female role model, except a boy irrationally terrified of appearing unmanly? Why do stereotypically male traits matter in the slightest? Some of the people on my list might be more āmasculine,ā others more āfeminine.ā When we try to organize people this way, we quickly run into confusion. Paul Robeson was a football player, but he also performed musical theater. Is the former āmasculineā and the latter not? (Robeson was also a Stalinist. People are complicated, and itās best not to admire anyone uncritically!)
And the author is correct. Especially as we gain more success in destigmatizing men doing traditionally feminine activities, qualifiers such as masculine and feminine make less sense. After all, if every gender wears makeup, then why is it feminine? If every gender likes sports, then why is it masculine? Because thatās how it was traditionally? We changed the tradition because it sucked, so we donāt need to continue being beholden to it.
itās questioning why they have to be masculine specifically when desirable characteristics among people are largely gender neutral.
Because young men exist, and study after study has shown that positive role models who look like the group in question have an outsized effect as compared to those from a different group. Itās a matter of how easily a young person can imagine themselves as that other person.
I donāt mean to argue against the degenderization of stereotypical behaviors and traits, and Iāve had plenty of role models who run the gamut of identities. But where is the inherent value in dismissing an identifier? We come to know ourselves through the similarities and differences we observe - what is gained if we think of one as inherently toxic? How much is lost if we abdicate our responsibility and allow regressive voices to offer the only definitions?
Itās perfectly fine to be a feminine man. Young men do not need a vision of positive masculinity.
This is where my beef is. Itās active dismissal of people for whom āmasculineā is an identifier. This is an argument that there is no space for positive masculinity in social equity. If the goal is to destigmatize people being who they are, why are we choosing to stigmatize a subset of those people?
What kind of young man fears having a female role model, except a boy irrationally terrified of appearing unmanly?
I was hit for having emotions as a child. When my grandmother died, I was terrified of showing how sad I was because it would have meant a beating. I was terrified of acknowledging my female role models, terrified of the fact that I had them. Iād have loved to have a positive male role model! One who embodied the kinds of prosocial gender neutral behaviors that would have let me know I wasnāt a complete outsider.
Because young men exist, and study after study has shown that positive role models who look like the group in question have an outsized effect as compared to those from a different group. Itās a matter of how easily a young person can imagine themselves as that other person.
Right, and no oneās arguing that they canāt have men as role models.
I donāt mean to argue against the degenderization of stereotypical behaviors and traits, and Iāve had plenty of role models who run the gamut of identities. But where is the inherent value in dismissing an identifier?
The first statement leads to the second because again, if we degenderize stereotypical behaviors, then the label doesnāt actually make sense.
We come to know ourselves through the similarities and differences we observe - what is gained if we think of one as inherently toxic?
No one here is labeling masculinity as inherently toxic. Just that itās a label defined by arbitrary cultural norms that are subject to change with a bunch of characteristics that are actually gender neutral (this is also the case for femininity).
How much is lost if we abdicate our responsibility and allow regressive voices to offer the only definitions?
I would say that if we have the cultural presence to project this kind of influence, that we should instead strive to move people away from this kind of thinking due to the above.
This is where my beef is. Itās active dismissal of people for whom āmasculineā is an identifier. This is an argument that there is no space for positive masculinity in social equity. If the goal is to destigmatize people being who they are, why are we choosing to stigmatize a subset of those people?
I wouldnāt say that this is stigmatizing anyone for being what is typically called positive masculine, nor does it exclude such men. It just calls for a small change in identity to one that makes more sense.
I was hit for having emotions as a child. When my grandmother died, I was terrified of showing how sad I was because it would have meant a beating. I was terrified of acknowledging my female role models, terrified of the fact that I had them.
Iām sorry to hear that your childhood was abusive and Iām glad to see that youāve since been able to embrace your true self; it can be a very difficult journey and Iām always happy to see people overcome their hardships for the better.
Iād have loved to have a positive male role model! One who embodied the kinds of prosocial gender neutral behaviors that would have let me know I wasnāt a complete outsider.
Men like Terry Crews (whom I would consider a positive male role model) donāt stop existing just because we laud them for their courage, bravery, and strength instead of their masculinity.
Iām sorry to hear that your childhood was abusive and Iām glad to see that youāve since been able to embrace your true self; it can be a very difficult journey and Iām always happy to see people overcome their hardships for the better.
Thank you. I was feeling some ways yesterday thinking we were talking past each other (unintentionally, Iām sure) but I really do appreciate it.
Itās all good.
I actually found your point of view a good way to think about thisā¦ To me, it suggests that masculinity needs to be redefined or the dichotomy āmasculine versus feminineā needs to be forgotten about. In different cultures that have a dichotomy of masculine versus feminine, the definitions or, if you will, characteristics that define them are different, often radically so. Why canāt it be manly to play with flower arrangements and hand out flowers to children? Sounds perfectly fine to me. Humans give meaning to body parts and behaviors with language. Depending on the society they live in, those meanings vary and evolve over time. Fashion trends in the Western world is possibly a way to understand this. Historically, the clothes that men and women wear that is āfashionableā changes over time. Sometimes prints are OK for men, sometimes they arenāt. Maybe everything needs to be considered OK for everybody.
I appreciate you commenting, and Iām glad you found it useful as a prompt! I agree that āmasculinityā needs an overhaul as a concept, and that the false dichotomy of masc vs fem should go by the wayside (as they pertain to stereotypes in society, not as facets of an individualās sense of self).
I think that there is positive masculinity and there is nothing wrong with a positive masculinity. I find some stoics as my role model. for example Marcus, and also I used to find a lot of help from the Enquiridion from Epictetus . For example Marcus Aurelius was all about compassion.
Is there anything inherently male about positive masculinity? Is it just a person with positive traits that happens to be male or are the traits themselves masculine?
runarskollI think the generally accepted rule of thumb is: if itās bad, itās male generated. If itās good, itās only human and could have an origin in any gender (but mostly female). So, noā¦only negative masculinity can be attributed to males. Positive masculinity is just another thing that got under the umbrella of āfemales can have that tooā.
I was going with an /s but decided no to use it, because somehow this is the insane state of affairs we got in 2023.
Traditionally male masculinity is the protector role, the provider. Now these roles are dual gendered. I at least, trying to not speak for all men, find my value as a man when the family is protected, warm, eating well, and wants for little to nothing, and I see it as my responsibility to make that happen the most.
I think itās less to do with the traits themselves and more to do with the person and how theyāre perceived. As other people have said - people get more of a significant impact from role models they can identify with or look like them. Thereās so much room for role models of all types, but if weāre thinking about masculinity specifically, so many young men and boys only have masculine folk in their lives who, for example, donāt share their emotions - and this pattern affirms the idea that itās not āmanlyā to be vulnerable.
More people who express themselves in a āmasculineā way modeling these positive traits show other people with similar identities and expressions that itās possible (and good) for them to do it, too.
Exactly this. Honestly, here in Australia we have a serious issue with toxic masculinity, and the weird thing is that itās the guys who are trying the least to be masculine who are actually getting stuff done.
In fact, itās not really related, but in practice, people who try the least to be a stereotypical macho male are also the best to hang with and shows theyāre comfortable with themselves
LaneusAs someone who was assigned male at birth, and never experienced any dysphoria from it, but who also doesnāt really identify with the term āmasculine.ā: I think itās import to remember that for a lot of men, especially those brought up in more traditionalist households, being āmanly,ā is a core part of how they self identify, and how they relate the world. And when core part of our identity is threatened, our brains react as if our lives were at stake. I donāt know how necessary gender is for a modern society, but so long as so many people place so much importance on their gender it deserves to be respected, the same as any widespread, and deeply held belief.
I think we should always be challenging traditional ideas, and I think offering as many options and viewpoints as possible to younger generations is a good idea. But given the limits of online discourse, I donāt really think you can meaningfully reject a masculinity, without also rejecting everyone who strongly identify as masculine.