Mastodawn

China says US military aid to Taiwan will not deter its will to unify the island

https://lemmy.world/post/2376887

China says US military aid to Taiwan will not deter its will to unify the island - Lemmy.world

TAIPEI, Taiwan (AP) — China accused the United States of turning Taiwan into an “ammunition depot” after the White House announced a $345 million military aid package for Taipei, and the self-ruled island said Sunday it tracked six Chinese navy ships in waters off its shores. China’s Taiwan Affairs Office issued a statement late Saturday opposing the military aid to Taiwan, which China claims as its own territory. “No matter how much of the ordinary people’s taxpayer money the … Taiwanese separatist forces spend, no matter how many U.S. weapons, it will not shake our resolve to solve the Taiwan problem. Or shake our firm will to realize the reunification of our motherland,” said Chen Binhua, a spokesperson for the Taiwan Affairs Office. “Their actions are turning Taiwan into a powder keg and ammunition depot, aggravating the threat of war in the Taiwan Strait,” the statement said. China’s People’s Liberation Army has increased its military maneuvers in recent years aimed at Taiwan, sending fighter jets and warships to circle the island. On Sunday, Taiwan’s Ministry of National Defense said it tracked six Chinese navy ships near the island. Taiwan’s ruling administration, led by the Democratic Progressive Party, has stepped up its weapons purchases from the U.S. as part of a deterrence strategy against a Chinese invasion. China and Taiwan split amid civil war in 1949, and Taiwan has never been governed by China’s ruling Communist Party. Unlike previous military purchases, the latest batch of aid is part of a presidential authority approved by the U.S. Congress last year to draw weapons from current U.S. military stockpiles — so Taiwan will not have to wait for military production and sales. While Taiwan has purchased $19 billion worth of weaponry, much of it has yet to be delivered to Taiwan. Washington will send man-portable air defense systems, intelligence and surveillance capabilities, firearms and missiles to Taiwan.

awwwyissss Jul 30, 2023

The island is already unified, they very clearly reject the CCPs authoritarian, violent demands.

Fuck the CCP, Taiwan is a free country.

PolydoreSmith Jul 30, 2023

I was gonna say, loving the use of the word “unify”. I also feel like the AP could have editorialized just a bit at least for the headline and maybe gone with something more along the lines of “reclaim”.

wurzelgummidge Jul 30, 2023

AP is just a clearing house for US propaganda

EnderWi99in Jul 30, 2023

Taiwan IS China.

JohnDClay Jul 30, 2023

Meaning the CCP is an illegitimate imposter right? RIGHT?

gornar Jul 31, 2023

I’ve heard that before, and yes, I believe that’s actually what they mean. The heart of China actually left the mainland, and Taiwan is the last remnant of true China left.

Fuck the ccp!

Move to lemm.ee Jul 30, 2023

Taiwan is a free country.

This is not the position Taiwan holds. Their own position is that Taiwan is an independently governed region of China.

Aurenkin Jul 31, 2023

Come on, mate. People love to trot this one out as some kind of ‘both sides’ bullshit as well. They conveniently forget to mention that the CCP has written into law that they will invade immediately if Taiwan makes that declaration.

Move to lemm.ee Jul 31, 2023

That law was only written in 2005, what about the 50 years before it?

Either way we know what people’s opinions are within Taiwan. They certainly don’t want unification, but they do want to maintain the status quo:

The “independence as soon as possible” crowd is almost as small as the unification as soon as possible crowd. And even all the bullshit that has been happening has not drastically changed people’s views. There was a brief “move towards independence” bump for a while between 2018 and 2020 but it has been declining as a result of the US’ involvement being too overt, it has been causing people to see it as something the US wants instead of something that’s good for them or something they want. More and more people are seeing it as the US interfering.

Aurenkin Jul 31, 2023

I don’t know about the fifty years before twenty years ago man, what about it? Taiwan and only been a democracy for less than 10 years at that point, a lot has changed.

The ‘want independence asap’ is almost 3x the ‘want unification asap’ crowd so I wouldn’t call them almost the same. As we’ve already discussed, Taiwan has a gun to it’s head, is it’s not surprising that the majority of people want some flavour of the status quo.

I’d be interested to know what makes you think any changes are due to peoples reactions to ‘U.S interference’, as you put it. It seems to me a lot of things have happened in the last few years.

All in all, it looks to me like the overwhelming majority of folks want to keep their independence, continue to live their lives, vote for their government and all the usual things that come from being your own people and living in your own country. The rest of the discussion can only revolve around semantics which I don’t think is really productive.

Appreciate you actually bringing the views of the Taiwane folks into this btw. That’s something that gets left out far too often in these discussions.

Move to lemm.ee Jul 31, 2023

Appreciate you actually bringing the views of the Taiwane folks into this btw. That’s something that gets left out far too often in these discussions.

What I care about most on the majority of issues is what people want. Despite the name of our system being “democracy” we don’t usually tend to get what we want though, I don’t think the majority of people want to start a war. Or want a child labour. Or want no healthcare. No rights. Blah blah blah. It would be nice if democracy produced democratic outcomes.

xzite Jul 31, 2023

If a referendum happened for this. Independence would absolutely not win.

And since they also don’t want “unification” you are absolutely against China attempting to invade Taiwan, and any aggressive actions like shooting missiles into waters near Taiwan, or threatening invasion, right?

Move to lemm.ee Jul 31, 2023

I am for the status quo but won’t be surprised if this constant interference from the US pushes them to end the matter permanently. It has been fine up until the US took an interest in it as part of the latest round of great power conflict.

xzite Jul 31, 2023

So you’re obviously not “happy about, but understand what caused” the Vietnam war, right? It was Chinese interference that pushed the US to end the matter permanently?

Move to lemm.ee Jul 31, 2023

Lmao. Fuck no.

A more accurate example would be the Cuban missile crisis.

xzite Jul 31, 2023

Lmao. Fuck no. The US involvement there was global imperialism trying to cling to its colonial holdings.

So the Chinese invasion of Vietnam is obviously also a bad thing that must be denounced and not just solemnly understood and accepted, right?

Move to lemm.ee Jul 31, 2023

There was no Chinese invasion of Vietnam until the sino-vietnam war that occurred years after the Vietnam war(civil war) in which China made the horrendous historical mistake of supporting the Khmer Rouge, but this itself was somewhat complicated. China had committed to protecting Cambodia, but Cambodia had a lot of fucky people on the border that were repeatedly invading Vietnam and performing pogroms and mass murders, not respecting their territorial integrity. This went on for far too long and Vietnam in order to protect themselves from Cambodia invaded Cambodia, doing a regime change. China launched their short-lived 1 month invasion in response to this. It’s murky waters indeed.

Not really sure what you’re going for here.

xzite Jul 31, 2023

Just one final question.

You obviously don’t support Japan taking back the Kuril Islands from a weakened Russia and aren’t happy about it, but obviously you understand what caused it and why it had to happen, right?

Move to lemm.ee Jul 31, 2023

I’m not familiar enough with this one to form an opinion, I’m not in the habit of holding opinions without proper investigation first and placing of things in their historical context, I can’t really do that right now I’m afraid. We’re both fortunate that for your previous questions I’m already fairly well read on to be honest.

So, maybe? Maybe not? lol. Aren’t these islands where the Ainu were from? They probably should be in control of the indigenous peoples so neither, but that’s unrealistic if they’re basically gone now. I’m probably saying something culturally incentive in my ignorance of the subject though.

xzite Aug 1, 2023

It’s very interesting how territorial disputes over basically uninhabited islands is too culturally insensitive to make conclusions on, but China invading and suppressing Taiwan harming millions in the process is an understandable certainty that doesn’t warrant condemnation.

I wonder why that is. 🤔

Move to lemm.ee Aug 1, 2023

Huh? No it’s not cultural insensitivity preventing me from having an opinion on that, it’s having very little contextual knowledge.

Why are you saying something that I did not say? The part that was probably culturally insensitive was clearly the part about indigenous people owning the island, I have no idea what they want, whether that’s true, or whether nationalism is even compatible with their culture.

You are doing the thing people do on reddit where they ignore what someone actually writes and then substitute it with the worst possible interpretation that you want to attack. You’re really not having a conversation with me in good faith are you? The hostility is entirely unnecessary, childish even.

xzite Aug 1, 2023

I have no idea what they want, whether that’s true, or whether nationalism is even compatible with their culture.

But you do have an idea what the Taiwanese want, and it isn’t a Chinese invasion, so why aren’t you condemning China for their hostile actions and threatening behavior?

Move to lemm.ee Aug 1, 2023

Are we going to go around in circles here? Because the drum beating is being driven by the foreign interference. If the US steps back from trying to interfere with it politically then there will no longer be any need to beat the drums. In the preceding 50 years there was basically no problem because the US had a largely pro-China policy and wasn’t interfering. This didn’t start spontaneously without material conditions that drive it.

xzite Aug 1, 2023

Which is again much like my understanding of why the US beat its drums when the USSR interfered with Cuba. I don’t condemn the US for drum beating over that event (despite my obvious distaste for the US and support for Cuba), its extremely obvious what caused it and it’s extremely obvious what is causing this.

So obviously a full US invasion of Cuba would not only have been understandable, but also justified? Just like all the assassination attempts on Castro were understandable and justified?

Move to lemm.ee Aug 1, 2023

Who said I want an invasion to happen? Drum beating and invasion are very different things.

xzite Aug 1, 2023

Who said I want an invasion to happen?

OK, you “won’t be happy about it” but will “understand why it happened”. Do you feel the same way about a US invasion of Cuba, and the assassination attempts on Castro? You just wanted the Soviet Union to fuck off and mind its own business?

Move to lemm.ee Aug 1, 2023

Yes?

With that said there was some more context there. The USSR sought to deploy missiles in Cuba because the US was deploying them in Turkey. Missiles were removed from Turkey and everything chilled out.

You can’t end these things without addressing all of the causes. Do you or do you not think the US should stop interfering? If you don’t, then you aren’t really trying to stop this you’re just trying to advance US interests. Trying to stand on the moral high ground while supporting the cause.

The dogspaw Jul 30, 2023

Maybe all the dead Chinese soldiers will be a deterrent too them

chaogomu Jul 30, 2023

They have an overabundance of men thanks to their stupid one child policy. The easiest way to correct their population numbers is to start a war to kill a bunch of the excess men.

freagle Jul 30, 2023

Oh, you’re talking about Youth Bulge Theory, a theory espoused by the US military to understand where conflicts will emerge and how to control them by killing off military aged males in those region through controlled conflicts.

You are projecting your death worship on people you consider “other”. Again.

chaogomu Jul 30, 2023

No, I'm saying China has about 40 million surplus men who will never be able to marry and start their own families. These people are causing problems in China, This very situation has happened in Chinese history before, the Nian Rebellion, where surplus males joined the Nian gangs and started terrorizing the countryside.

Now, historically, every single country on earth has dealt with the problem of excess males by starting a war. You either lose and kill a bunch of men who could be a problem, or win and kill a bunch of enemy men, thus freeing up their wives and daughters to become part of your population, thus solving the excess male problem.

CarbonIceDragon Jul 30, 2023

China’s population is actually in danger of the opposite extreme, that is, a population crash. They have a very large population currently, and probably will always be on the larger side, but the policy you mentioned, and the fact that it was continued longer than it had any utility, among other things, means that their birth rate is unsustainably low, in the long term, similarly to how Japan’s somewhat famously is. Beyond the normal dangers going to war poses to a country, like retaliatory action and economic disruption, losing any sizable fraction of it’s young labor force right before having a huge fraction of it’s population enter retirement age would be to take a bad situation and make it much worse. While having a significantly higher number of men than women might mean that there is a population of men whos absence would not affect the fertility rate, those people still contribute to the pool of talent and labor in the country.

JohnDClay Jul 30, 2023

They have an underabundance of men, and a severe underabundance of women. Their demographics are looking terrible either way.

freagle Jul 30, 2023

And people say that calling the West a death cult is an exaggeration

Aurenkin Jul 30, 2023

Ah yes, giving military aid to Taiwan is turning it into a powder keg and aggravating the threat of war. Firing missile into the ocean all around Taiwan is just a calm and rational thing to do to help ease tensions in the region.

Fuck off CCP.

freagle Jul 30, 2023

Arming a secessionary territory after protecting it with European interventionism for decades is literally making it into a powder keg. Deliberately demonstrating military capabilities, like detonating over 1000 nuclear bombs in territories inhabited and used by the world’s indigenous peoples, from the Pacific Islands to the deserts of Turtle Island, is a calm and rational deterrent strategy.

You are projecting your Western atrocities onto other people. Again.

Gargleblaster Jul 30, 2023

The Chinese Civil War ended with out Mao being able to capture Taiwan, where the KMT set up its Republic. No secession necessary. It was part of the ROC before the war and never part of the CCP.

Put your propagandized version on the bookshelf next to the story about your tanks running over your own youth to preserve your authoritarian system.

And you talking about indigenous people while you try to eradicate the Uyghurs in Xinjiang is another book o that shelf.

freagle Jul 30, 2023

The fucking Europeans moved their navies in to defend the KMT and made it clear that they wanted to work with the KMT because Europe was anti-communist. It’s not merely that the PLA couldn’t take Taiwan.

The idea that because Taiwan was part of the ROC and therefore is legitimate because it still is is so fucking ridiculous I don’t even know where to begin. Let’s maybe start with the White Terror that history books say started when the KMT declared martial law on the island but doesn’t include the killing of 18k people on the island who rose up to fight the KMT. Why would that have happened if they were all just part of the ROC and everything was fine and continuous? Why would the White Terror last 40 years of it was just everyone on the island was totally fine being part of this continuous ROC you imagine in your delusion? Why would the KMT need to spend decades killing dissidents?

You can put your version of events into your needle and inject it straight into your track marked arms. You live off delusional coping mechanisms that allow you to maintain your self-concept as one of the good ones who sees and understands the true evil in the world.

Adlach Jul 30, 2023

It’s not America’s job to intervene in a civil war in East Asia. I’m not sure how it doing so is anything but provocative.

zacher_glachl Jul 30, 2023

The fact that you call it a civil war is all we need to know.

TheDeadGuy Jul 30, 2023

It's actually is their job. They have several treaties from SE counties trying to avoid being abused by China that go back decades

Jumper775 Jul 30, 2023

The vast majority of American microchips are made in Taiwan at TSMC, if the people’s republic of china controlled this it would be devastating for the US and most western countries as china would have complete control over military chip production and likely would have access to American military secrets embedded in microchips produced there. It is of utmost importance to the entire western world that Taiwan maintains their self-government, whether or not it really is a part of china.

EnderWi99in Jul 30, 2023

It is because they have had a defense pact for years. So it's very much part of its job. Taiwan is the legitimate government of China and has simply been stuck off the cost in exile for years. The US never should have normalized relations with an illegitimate government in the first place.

TheDeadGuy Jul 30, 2023

Yeah Taiwan has had independence far too long for them to accept being swept into the Chinese system.

The fact they want US help over cooperation with the CCP is telling

gornar Jul 31, 2023

And look what happened yo Hong Kong after “promises” anyway! A reasonable person would expect the same treatment or worse for Taiwan

DominusOfMegadeus Aug 1, 2023

They were never really “dependent” to begin with. It was a split, and Taiwan is what remains of the OG Chinese Government. They’re kind of MORE legit that the CCP.

jaschen Jul 30, 2023

Ask Putin how the “fuck around” is doing for his country?

rustyfish Jul 30, 2023

They won’t do anything. The Chinese government is terrified by Taiwan. So sadly the Russians are the only ones who enter the „finding out“.

Zaktor Aug 2, 2023

So sadly the Russians are the only ones who enter the „finding out“.

Counterpoint: It’s not sad that there isn’t going to be a war, whether or not it might be humiliating to an authoritarian regime.

Mosebulb Jul 30, 2023

Can’t wait for their 2648th final warning

China's final warning - Wikipedia

JohnDClay Jul 30, 2023

If course they say that, they don’t want aid going to Tiwan, so make people think it won’t help. You can’t rely on an opposing parties appraisal of what it’s response is going to be, since they have massive insensitive to bluff.

Risk Jul 30, 2023

Big yikes on that pyramid. Please could you share where you got it from?

JohnDClay Jul 30, 2023

Sure, think it’s on the wiki en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China

Demographics of China - Wikipedia

Risk Aug 1, 2023

Thanks. China looks like it might have a big problem on its hands with that large volume of young men without partners.

Pons_Aelius Jul 30, 2023

doesn’t look very pyramidal

What it says to me is "China has a decade or so left before they won't have the manpower to attempt an invasion".

That to me, is more worrying than reassuring.

randon31415 Jul 30, 2023

“Unify the island” says west Tawain. Should it read “Unity with the island?”

lemmyshmemmy Jul 30, 2023

Yeah, the island country of Taiwan is already united, they don’t want a CCP invasion.

avater Jul 30, 2023

I always love it when fucking communists are talking about the actions of all the others that are false, but of course not their own…

No you degenerated cunts, you are the problem! Your lack of democracy, your greed for more and more power, your backwarded political systems and brainwashing of the people is the problem, not the others!

So kindly fuck off please and stop threatening us…or start your war and see your world burn to the ground!

kokiriflute Jul 30, 2023

Imperialist China wants to take more land by force.

We should continue to stand up for the sovereign rights of any country being bullied by a larger country.

MajorSauce Jul 30, 2023

Is this comment coming from an American? I assumed that it is the case and found it hilarious.