John ShirleyJul 28, 2023

from Wikipedia article about David "I saw the aliens" Grusch

Australian political commentator Caitlin Johnstone pointed out that this resurgence of UFO/UAP coverage is coincident with a renewed U.S. emphasis on weaponizing space: "Is it a coincidence that this new UFO narrative began its rollout in 2017, around the same time as the rollout of the Space Force? Are we being manipulated at mass scale about aliens and UFOs to help grease the wheels for the movement of war machinery into space?"

Show threadAlan AsterJul 28, 2023

@JohnShirley2023 of course we’re being manipulated by warhawks at all times.

But there are over 100 billion stars in our galaxy alone. Do you think there’s even the remotest chance that humanity is the most advanced species in all those star systems?

And why fixate on bashing Grusch’s whistleblowing when the other two pilots that testified have way more compelling camera/infrared/radar/eye witness evidence?

Show threadJohn ShirleyJul 28, 2023
@AlanAster The other people who testified saw only lights and vague shapes moving in the sky. Grusch claims to have seen alien bodies, etc etc. Very different. Of COURSE there are extraterrestrials--out there. Somewhere. There's no evidence they've been here...yet. This guy is likely someone setting up his plans for a moneymaking book and movie.
Show threadAlan AsterJul 29, 2023

@JohnShirley2023 Fair enough! If Grusch is lying, I hope he goes to jail for lying under oath and wasting taxpayers' time/money.

On the other hand, former pilots Lt. Graves and Cmdr. Fravor seem (in my opinion) very uninterested in the spotlight, and as credible of witnesses as I’ve ever seen.

Show threadJohn Shirley
@AlanAster Right, the pilots are credible, I don't doubt they saw what they testified they saw. But as I said earlier--they didn't see the rivets on the spacecraft (speaking figuratively). All they saw were moving objects, moving in strange ways. Google Preliminary Assessment: Unidentified Aerial Phenomena. The pdf says: "analysis of the data supports the construct that when individual UAP incidents are resolved
they will fall into...explanatory categories" (continued in the next reply):
Jul 29, 2023 at 12:26amWeb
Show threadJohn ShirleyJul 29, 2023
@AlanAster ...and yeah, aerial debris, one was a partly deflated balloon as it turned out, some are probably mylar party baloons which are very shiny and deceptive and cause many UFO reports and move in weird ways. Atmospheric conditions and ordinary illusions can cause an object to seem bigger than it is. Why jump to betting the 2 pilots saw nonhuman craft? What's probability tell you? Drones or experimental foreign craft are more likely. Occam's Razor is a thing.
Show threadJohn ShirleyJul 29, 2023
@AlanAster if they had shot down and recovered alien craft, as the Senators said and other people in govt had said, no way they could keep that secret. Just. Too. Big. A human or natural cause will always be more likely. Did you know that many UFO reports come from clusters of spiders that use little parachute like webs to migrate? they look truly bizarre up there.
Show threadJohn ShirleyJul 29, 2023
@AlanAster https://a-z-animals.com/blog/flying-spiders-where-they-live/
Flying Spiders: Where They Live

Where do flying spiders live? We've done the research! Jump in to read about the ultimate flying spiders and where they live!

AZ Animals
Show threadSeán FenianJul 29, 2023
@JohnShirley2023 @AlanAster I remember a comment LONG LONG ago from one of the USAF Generals in charge of Project Blue Book.

"Unidentified flying objects don't interest me," he said. "Now, IDENTIFIED flying objects ... THOSE are interesting."
Show threadAlan AsterJul 31, 2023

@JohnShirley2023 Those 2 pilots Fravor & Graves describe (while under oath) seeing on clear days with no visibility issues, tictac-shaped objects that accelerated vastly beyond any military craft's capability.

You can publicly view the camera & infrared video of this incident. The object shows no heat exhaust, rotor wash, or any sign of propulsion.

In their testimony and previous interviews, they rule out all ordinary explanations. They also state that it jammed their radar.

Show threadJohn ShirleyJul 31, 2023
@AlanAster They don't rule out ordinary explanations. *You* rule out ordinary explanations. Or rather, ordinary isn't the word--non ET explanations. If there were indications of jammed radar--such indications can be iffy--then that suggests foreign drones or something similar. The Chinese seem to be testing our defensive capabilities--note those balloon intrusions--so it could be them. It *looked* like "objects that accelerated vastly beyond any military craft's capability"--common illusions.
Show threadAlan AsterAug 1, 2023

@JohnShirley2023 Come on, John, it's silly to say the Chinese or any other nation or company would secretly have a craft that can go from stationary to supersonic in a matter of seconds. If any nation had that tech, they wouldn't hide it, they would flaunt it for military dominance.

It didn't *look* like it accelerated extraordinarily, it *did* accelerate extraordinarily. Camera, infrared, radar, & pilot witnesses. Not an illusion.

Show threadJohn ShirleyAug 1, 2023
@AlanAster Or -- they would test it. Use it to spy on our defense capabilities. . .as for illusion, that's not the kind I mean. I should have been clearer. The object is there--but is it doing what it seems to be doing? “Pilots are human,” West said in the video, “and while they are great at flying planes, they are not always good at identifying things they have never seen before. But really, who is?” Again: probability. What's more probable, some unknown earthly misinterpretation? Or ETs?
Show threadJohn ShirleyAug 1, 2023
@AlanAster Whether the radar corroborated unusual speed I don't know. But suppose it were, as one example, a mylar balloon, a very low-mass object, and suppose it was farther than it appeared so he couldn't be sure of size--there is nothing in the bg for scale--and suppose it was suddenly sucked into something like a jet stream, or some other fast air current. It would move *very* fast as it's *very* light. It would change direct "impossibly" because it's not using any engine, its swept away.
Show threadAlan AsterAug 2, 2023

@JohnShirley2023 Yes, no doubt that some sightings were balloons. But in this case, Cmdr. Fravor stated in opening statement (under oath) that the tictac-shaped object went rapidly from altitudes of 80,000 feet to 20,000 feet, stayed there, then went back up to 80,000 feet.

He also mentions, "Clear skies, light winds, calm seas, no white caps or waves...It rapidly accelerated in front of us and disappeared."

His description & the footage do not match balloons, human craft or weather phenomena.

Show threadJohn ShirleyJul 31, 2023
@AlanAster and they'd have been too far off to see any rotor wash or propulsion or exhaust. Where's this video? The stuff I saw on video from these accounts was very distant. Also this was almost 20 years ago! 2004, if we're talking about the same thing, so couldn't have been China's current "testing" program (if they have one). I think it was far more likely that they saw something that looked like more than it was. It's unclear how close Fravor got to what he saw.
Show threadJohn ShirleyJul 31, 2023
@AlanAster CBS news: Rubio told 60 Minutes that unidentified aerial phenomena detected by our military are "not ours," and he's concerned they might represent a foreign surveillance threat. "We certainly want to make sure that it's not a foreign adversary capability, meaning…the Russians, or the Chinese…have developed some technology.... It's a huge counterintelligence threat if that's what it is. We want to take that seriously."
Show threadSeán FenianJul 31, 2023
@JohnShirley2023 @AlanAster A spokesman from AARO, the actual government project that actually investigates this stuff, stated that the supposed "whistleblower" who can't actually show any evidence for his claims "because it's all classified" was never a part of the project anyway.
Show threadJohn ShirleyJul 31, 2023
@zakalwe @AlanAster then he's been lying-- because he claimed to be part of the program. So he wasn't after all. So he has no credibility.
Show threadSeán FenianJul 31, 2023
@JohnShirley2023 @AlanAster Not that the Republicans care that he's lying. They probably knew in the first place.
Show threadJohn ShirleyJul 31, 2023
@zakalwe @AlanAster yes it's just a smokescreen for them
Show threadJohn ShirleyJul 31, 2023
@AlanAster https://www.history.com/videos/uss-nimitz-tic-tac-ufo-declassified-video here's some good video. It's too blurry to tell what it is. There's a famous super 8 film of a disc shaped object taken over Catalina, flying along. Analysis showed it was an airplane--it's just that often in the distance and with haze airplanes or jets blur into oval shapes. In the video when the thing leaves the view, it doesn't to me seem to be moving with any kind of unprecedented acceleration. Pilots are human beings, who've all see science fiction movies
HISTORY

The HISTORY Channel - Geschichte erleben! The HISTORY Channel ist der deutschsprachige Pay-TV-Sender für spannende Dokumentationen und macht die Faszination von Menschen und Ereignissen täglich greifbar!

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Show threadAlan AsterAug 1, 2023
@JohnShirley2023 I've seen this before. We've already established that most sightings have simple explanations. The tictac-shaped craft has no simple explanation.
Show threadJohn ShirleyAug 1, 2023
@AlanAster Okay, and I do yes believe the pilots, but the far-greater probability is some explanation *more simple than extraterrestrial craft*.
Show threadJohn ShirleyAug 1, 2023
@AlanAster “Pilots are human,” West said in the video, “and while they are great at flying planes, they are not always good at identifying things they have never seen before. But really, who is?” https://thedebrief.org/recent-pilot-uap-sightings-point-to-aviation-safety-challenges-experts-say/
Recent Pilot UAP Sightings Point to Aviation Safety Challenges, Experts Say - The Debrief

Science, Tech and Defense for the Rebelliously Curious.

The Debrief
Show threadJohn ShirleyAug 1, 2023
@AlanAster I'm not sure about any of this, though. Except one thing: David Grusch is a liar. The pilots--I'm sure they're telling the truth. But not Grusch. And it'll always be more probable that it's got *some* Earthly explanation than that it's ET based.
Show threadAlan AsterAug 2, 2023

@JohnShirley2023 I'm not 100% sure either and perfectly open to being wrong. But if Grusch were lying under oath and his sources don't corroborate, he'd be facing years if not decades in prison for perjury.

You'd think given the implications, the national security subcommittee would follow up on his sources and witness list, (which he said in the testimony that he would provide).

Definitely either Dept. of Defense or Maj. Grusch are lying. And of course DoD has never lied before 😆

Show threadJohn ShirleyAug 2, 2023
@AlanAster it's not perjury anyone can prove, is his calculation. He was pretty careful about his wording too. oh and some official said that Grusch was never in that investigation of UFOs outfit
Show threadJohn ShirleyAug 3, 2023
@AlanAster Grusch did not repeat his most sensational claims under oath. He "danced around them" as someone said. He also says he's starting a foundation to study this stuff. when you're starting foundations you need to drum up funding. You can drum up funding with sensational claims.
Show threadJohn ShirleyAug 3, 2023
@AlanAster "...one can state objectively that his claims are two steps removed from being Earth-shattering: not only has he not shared any verifiable evidence—photographs, artifacts, or any other manner of data—but he also has not personally seen or touched any of the objects he references." https://www.bu.edu/articles/2023/ex-intelligence-official-us-government-ufo/
Is the Government Concealing UFO Craft and Dead Extraterrestrials? BU’s Joshua Semeter Assesses a Former Pentagon Employee’s Eye-popping Claims

Joshua Semeter discusses a former Pentagon worker’s claim that the government is covering up captured extraterrestrial craft—and their dead pilots.

BU Today
Show threadAlan AsterAug 1, 2023

@JohnShirley2023 You can believe whatever you like, I have no stake in convincing you. But I challenge you to listen to Graves or Fravor's testimony or any of their past interviews, (most of which show the FLIR camera/infrared footage).

Until you've heard their case I don't see how you can have such a strong opinion on what they saw. I get that old stigmas die hard, but at a certain point you might consider hearing them out if you're truly impartial.

Show threadJohn ShirleyAug 1, 2023
@AlanAster Why do you assume I didn't listen? I DID listen to it. It says to me: "we don't know what this was, it was strange". It just does not say to me, "therefore these are ET spacecraft". Probability is it's something else.
Show threadAlan AsterAug 2, 2023

@JohnShirley2023 Fair enough, John! I was in the same boat as you up until a couple years ago.

If you prefer to wait for a DoD, NASA, etc. to publicly admit they've encountered non-human craft, AND release high-resolution imagery, nothing wrong with that.

To me, we're already at a pretty compelling point of credible testimony, imagery, and probability, though.

Show threadJohn ShirleyAug 2, 2023
@AlanAster you have credible testimony and imagery of something seen in the sky that was sufficiently strange it puzzled a military pilot. So that's not nothing but the probability is still with earthly. I'll be the first to celebrate if there are reveals from the actual govt itself that there are crashed craft and bodies. I'm thinking of writing a short story about such a reveal that turns out to be officials creating fake but real looking bodies to deceive a President for political reasons.