silence7People Aren’t Facing Up to the Horrors a New Trump Term Would Bring | G’bye, NATO. G’bye, “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” repeal. G’bye, democracy. He’s telling us plain as day. Why aren’t people listening?
The ones voting for him are listening. That’s exactly what they think they want want. The average republican voter is simply too stupid to understand the long term implications of their choices. This is the same stupid push that led to Brexit.
They’re being controlled by the smart republicans that are using it to enrich themselves at others expense.
While democrats do this kind of manipulation too, at least they aren’t pushing straight up authoritarianism.
What are some examples of manipulation from the Democratic party that you are equating here?
Their entire platform is, “at least I’m not him” they don’t do anything to combat it because they benefit from them. I believe that the Hillary campaign even secretly helped promote Trump early on because they thought it would be an easy win.
ThrashyI think this is a more cynical view than can be supported by facts in evidence. For sure, in Ye Olden Days when the parties weren’t actually all that far apart, there was some level of building up a bogeyman to get out the base while everybody was friendly behind closed doors. But especially in the era of Trump, I think most congressional Democrats (leftwards of Machin and Sinema, at least) are genuinely afraid of what a second Trump turn would mean for the country, not least because it would likely mean a practical end to democratic processes at the federal level. Hard to benefit from the bogeyman when the bogeyman has made your presence in politics impossible-to-illegal.
And yet 2.5 years into this administration what has been accomplished? These people are too old to care. Biden was always a conservative, even during his campaign he said he would never support public healthcare. It’s almost like they are doing nothing on purpose.
Because, frustratingly, Biden isn’t the sort of LBJ-esque power player who can haul miserable DINOs like Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema into the Oval Office to threaten them with political death unless they fall into line with his agenda. The fact of the matter is that just like in Obama’s first term, Democrats really only had control of Congress for two years, and by a margin so slim that they needed unanimity to actually advance rules changes in the Senate, let alone legislation. That meant that Biden’s entire agenda was bottlenecked by two of the most worthless assholes in the whole party, people who are definitely guilty of the short-sighted political gamesmanship that you want to ascribe to the entire party. Their obstructionism meant that, because of Senate rules, there’s only one chance or year to pass major legislation, and even then it has to ostensibly be budget-related.
Despite all that, Biden and the rest of the Democrats did manage to get major legislation on climate enacted, in the form of the Inflation Reduction Act. Was the the whole Green New Deal? No, Manchin the coal baron wasn’t going to vote for that. But it’s still make change in a positive direction. The fact that there hasn’t been more is there fault of two senators in particular – and the solution to that is not to throw up our hands and declare “both sides are the same!”. It’s to get out the vote for more progressive legislators to make those assholes politically irrelevant.
There’s things around LGBTQ+ support that are more opportunistic than actually caring, there’s things around environmental support that get said but not acted upon, there’s things around taxes and medical coverage that also get said but don’t actually happen.
Yeah, I hear you. Lots of things get said, but little gets done-- I can’t argue with that. But I’m looking for concrete examples because most of the goals and results people are expecting, from my perspective, are things that only get accomplished through legislation. Democrats have recently been focusing on voting right. A solid voting rights bill would be a solid step toward tackling the issues you mentioned, but in June the most recent bill was voted against by all 50 Republican senators.
oddsbodkinsDebbie Wasserman-Schultz still exists and is a Democrat. And I think another thing people have issue with. Is that while it’s understandable that Sinema and Manchin exist and are horrible. Democrats seem to most often use that as an excuse to not even try. Republicans try and thankfully often fail to do horrible things. But they try. It’s one thing to say you support X. It’s another to be seen trying to support it. Democrats talk the talk, but most can’t walk.
BraveSirZaphodI honestly don't know if I buy the "Republicans are all stoopid" argument entirely; there are plenty of relatively intelligent people that have supported him.
More than a lack of intelligence, I think it's more a radical lack of any empathy or concern for anyone they don't see as being on their same side. I mean, the Republican platform is essentially nothing more than "Own the Libs" at this point. It's not so much that they don't necessarily know the consequences of their actions; they don't care, and would rather prioritize hurting their enemies.
Having much of my family being republican, I think you are leaving out an important piece of the puzzle - fear.
Republicans are terrified all the time. Fear of the other, fear that how they grew up and the people they know are being called wrong for what they think and say. It manifests through anger.
If they can knock you down then you are weak and wrong and they are justified in doing it.
Hmmm…interestinf point…is there a way to break down this deeply-embeeded fear?
I can second this. Every time my parents have expressed a political view, it came from some shock-news spin of how America was a murderous wasteland on the brink of disaster (not because there are more guns than people, but because of all the non-white people who live here).
When I told my parents I was going to New Orleans for a weekend vacation, they were terrified I would get murdered because they had been barraged with news about it being a lawless Democrat-run warren. (Not to downplay the actual violence that has taken place in NO, but their response still made it clear they had seen some first-class fearmongering).
samwiseOh for sure. There are people who literally think Portland was physically destroyed by Democrats and antifa in the summer of 2020, and that it’s now a post-apocalyptic wasteland.
I would classify someone who hurts themselves to hurt others as stupid.
LeafeyteaLast time I checked, the Democrats didn’t put forth a candidate for office who they were busy planning to hold a vote for in Congress to erase their prior impeachments, and none who received two federal indictments with a third pending criminal charges… SMH
Truly, it boggles the mind that there are people in this world who think this is someone who is going to do good for the country when aside from the above, there are literally decades of legal and personal disasters that continue to follow him around. He is the Midas touch in reverse.
Midas touch in reverse
Also known as "the Mierdas touch".
Urban Dictionary: The Mierdas Touch
The ability to turn everything one touches to shit. The phrase is a mash up of the King Midas myth of being cursed that everything he touched turned to gold and mierdas, which is the spanish word for shit. There is some controversy as to whether the object touched was already a piece of shit with an exceedingly thin veneer of gold plating, where the Mierdas Touch serves only to reveal the subject's true nature versus the Mierdas Touch actually turning any object into shit, even if it was previously unblemished.
Came here to say this. How many times are we gonna watch one of them “accidentally” quote Hitler in a speech, or talk about the benefits of slavery, or talk about how they want to make women second-class citizens, then pretend that they didn’t? They gathered under a banner at CPAC that said ‘We are all domestic terrorists’. When someone tells you who they are, believe them.
I think they’re listening but not hearing. The majority of Americans, and even the majority of republicans, tend to support marriage equality and cannabis legalization, and even support things like a government health care program in significant numbers.
When polled on individual positions, Americans tend to fall well to the left of the republican politicians on most social issues. But that changes when you specifically identify a position as a democratic position. There has been a never-ending barrage of branding attacks on words like “democrat” and “liberal” to the extent that even democratic politicians felt like they had to avoid labels like that for a long time.
I think they have the ability to get people whipped up, because news canalization prevents people from hearing opposing viewpoints. They get away with saying they want to ban drag shows because they don’t want four year olds to watch open sex acts which a) is already illegal and b) has nothing to do with drag. But they don’t hear that - they hear the overblown and patently false rhetoric and that’s what will drive them in the near term.
I’m afraid we’re going to lose ground in both the legal sphere and in public opinion as homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, and racism become to be seen as more acceptable, but as of right now we still have made a significant amount of progress. But if the news media and politicians treat them as areas where multiple legitimate opinions exist, we’re absolutely going to backslide, and it’s going to take decades to just get back to where we are now.
It really is a scorched earth mentality. They don’t care if everything they love burns, as long as what they hate burns along with it.
It’s been said numerous times that Republicans would let Trump shit in their mouths if it meant a Democrat had to smell it. And it never fails to be true.
OP, your problem is that you’re thinking rationally- his devoted minions don’t. They’ve been terrified into believing that they want- no…. NEED these things that only trump can provide. He’s the heroin to their junkie. Only, junkies are smarter than your average trump worshipper.
Banzai51“Look man, I lost my house with that really smart, the market is only going up, interest only loan with the balloon payment. Then, the Libs elected a black President. I suffered. The WRONG people are suffering. And Trump will make sure the RIGHT people will suffer. I’m on that side. The leopards won’t eat MY face again.”
Reading the article makes my blood run cold and starting to think about moving to Europe, and I’m not even that marginalized. White, male, gay, mostly cis. But then, if the US withdraws from NATO won’t Russia run amok in Europe? Is this WWIII?
CylinsierThe US is far too large and powerful a nation to hide from. The consequences of four more years of Trump climate policy alone will find you anywhere on this planet. You cannot run away from the fallout of a second Trump term just by moving to a different continent. Only choice is to stay and help the fight against it.
There’s a lot to worry about from a second Trump presidency, but Russia running amok in Europe isn’t one of them. They’re having enough trouble running amok on the eastern fringes of Ukraine.
Isn’t a large part of their trouble that NATO is supplying Ukraine?
They didn’t start that until the war was well underway, and Russia was already stopped in it’s tracks.
Also: much of that hardware is coming from Europe, not the US. Also: if NATO disbanded, Europe would have to ramp up military spending: Trump’s big company is that France and Germany aren’t carrying their weight.
All I see is someone who finally wants to shut down the war machine. I have waited since the Bush administration for someone to do that. Obama ran on bringing our troops home, and actually expanded foreign military involvement.
If Trump is the only one who has the balls to put an end to the American World Police, then so be it.
Sucking up to Putin and Kim Jong Il isn’t anti-war. It is just picking the other side of the war machine.
kroldenKim jong il is dead
I don’t even care if I got the name wrong. That’s how little respect I have. Unlike Trump.
Military spending still increased under trump. The only war machines he shut down were our allies' we were helping in local conflicts. That and showing the US is unreliable if someone like him gets office again
StorksforlegsHe was president for four years and he didnt do this at all. What are you talking about?
RedhotkurtAll I see is someone making weak excuses to put a fascist back in the White House.
If Trump is the only one who has the balls to put an end to the American World Police, then so be it.
You have got to be shitting me. He had his chance; he was in office for four years. Get the fuck outta here, man.
He literally floated the idea of using the US military as a mercenary force. Are you a fucking dumb?
Dumb? I thought so too, then I reread their comment and looked at their post history. Not by a long shot, they know exactly what they're doing. From their first comment posted 8 hours ago: "I’m a moderate that a lot of people confuse for a conservative."
It's textbook conservative propaganda: pose as a "moderate" with a "fair and balanced" opinion, paint the Rs as misunderstood, and poison the well with a straw man argument. I mean, really, the idea of trying to "shut down the war machine" has nothing to do at all with people's fears of what another Trump presidency would bring. That's a straw man argument. It's absolute horse shit.
In other words, just more bad faith acting from a minority party that relies on deception to make it look like they have more than 35% support nationwide. Next they'll say "Why are all crimes committed by black people? Just asking questions."
UngodlyAudrey🏳️⚧️It’s textbook conservative propaganda: pose as a “moderate” with a “fair and balanced” opinion, paint the Rs as misunderstood, and poison the well with a straw man argument.
Ah, the Tim Pool strat.
Exactly! Pool is a great example.
J.B. PinkleDumb? I thought so too, then I reread their comment and looked at their post history. Not by a long shot, they know exactly what they’re doing.
So I took a peek based on this comment and you are surely correct.
My GP is booking 2 months in advance these days, and my only alternatives are doctors with such heavy foreign accents I can barely understand them. It’s only going to get worse with mass immigration.
Yeesh.
Downvote away, but your last sentence is exactly what you’re making an accusation of, bad faith and strawman.
Ok, you know what? I agree. You're right, it was really presumptuous and hypocritical to say that. And disproportionately hostile. But if I had left out that last sentence, what would your reaction be? Would you have agreed, or would you have claimed it was not propaganda and that the dude was not acting in bad faith?
Oh, I’m with you, and I know it’s frustrating when you want to raise the discourse and seemingly all they want to do is wallow in the mud. I was just pointing out when you join them you can be just as easily dismissed instead of getting your point made.
circularfishYou made a good point but we’re trying to keep the discourse civil here and have to apply the rules fairly across the board. Feel free to re-post without the color commentary and we’ll see how this plays out.
There are a lot of good responses to you here. @FatCrab raised mercenary use of U.S. forces - I am not familiar with that story but I believe Trump advisor Erik Prince did in fact offer mercenary support to the Wagner group.
Trump at one point mooted invading Venezuela. Members of the GOP (and reportedly Trump himself) are currently floating the idea of bombing Mexico. And let’s not forget, Trump has famously threatened to use the military against American citizens.
So unless you want to leave the impression that you are just a right wing troll on a drive by, which would not be healthy for your long-term prospects here, perhaps you’d care to expound on the nuance of your argument?
The same guy who attacked protestors live on TV for a photoshoot, that’s the guy who’s ending war? Nah bud he’s bringing the war here and going to crush us citizens again.
Can-UtilityThere are some comments on some threads that really call into question the lack of a downvote button.
When a comment is so wrongheaded, so topsy-turvy logically and morally, it is actively harmful to discourse; not being able to deemphasize it leads to a generally worsened conversation.
Stop assuming they’re stupid. They’re not stupid. They’re monsters, they know exactly what they’re doing and they’re doing it because they want people to suffer.
“The right people” to suffer. They never wanted themselves, their neighbors, or even the poor people down the road to suffer. They want all tge bad people Fox News tells them about to suffer and the fucking democrats just refuse to make the Fox News anchors happy!
Stupid? No. We are all much more susceptible to propaganda than we think.
This. There are A LOT of errors and fallacies which the brain makes, and oftentimes those can be used by bad actors to influence, nudge, and manipulate the person into doing something.
While I understand there is a certain level of accountability that needs to be enforced, we should keep in mind the puppetmaster whom we often do not see in the background can do more harm because they are more deeply embedded and have more implicit power that needs to be uncovered and stopped.
Trump can be both stupid and a monster, we just have to focus on the monster part more than the stupid.
RentlarTrump is very talented with one thing and one thing only: Making Everything About Him. (MEAH?)
It’s the others in the party, whether it’s legislators like McConnell, Green Margarine, Bobert, Cruz, or lobbyists for the capitalists like the Federalist Society, Koch brothers, O&G, health insurance that make sure things stay “good for business” (and shitty for your average person).
Labeling them stupid is part of the psyop. Ive found myself correcting so many people IRL when they say that trump is stupid. Like, yeah, he’s a piece of shit but if he’s so stupid then how did he convince so many people to believe everything he says.
mobyduck648Yeah I feel we had a less extreme example of this phenomenon in the UK with Boris Johnson. Lots of people took his bumbling blonde persona at face value but the reality is he’s a cunning political operator without any basic moral instincts.
Trump I believe is their perfect idiot. He’s acting exactly how he has always acted, and there’s just way too many times he’s been super hype to admit to felonies on tape. If you want an example of playing stupid as a psyop, google George W Bush debating with Al Gore and doing wild shit like calling astronauts “spatial entrepreneurs”, then google his debates with Ann Richards for the governorship of Texas. That man was playing stupid for the stupid.
ozonedSadly this. I yelled at MIL when Roe was overturned and a 10 year old made headline news. Her response was “BUT THE MEXICANS!”. They literally don’t give a flying fuck about anyone but themselves and blaming absolutely EVERYONE else.
glacierIf the US were actually a democratic country, Republicans would barely exist.
Because he “owns the libs” and that makes them feel good. They have zero policy ideas or concerns, their only political stance is hurt the democrats feelings.
Hurt feelings isn’t what we need to be watching out for. Literally by definition, to be a supporter of the Republican Party after the events of Jan. 6 is to be a supporter of and defender of domestic terrorism against American citizens.
SnapzPeople are listening, you’re watching too much corporate news - they are angling him as legitimate to “make a race” and get ratings. These cynical fucks aspire to be the announcers of the hunger games one day so they can wear the glitter makeup and be the center of attention.
Trump’s base is a dwindling 25% of those who vote, he already lost last time and his indictments should add up to something. The problem with our gerrymandered kleptocracy is that the federal elections come down to Shirley in Ohio/Pennsylvania. Shirley did the right thing last time around but she’s back at the prom now and everyone wants to dance with her - how will she vote? Suburban moms in the Midwest, mostly non-college educated, hold the fate of the future in their live, laugh, love scripting hands…
So when you say “people aren’t facing up to” the people of not here are Shirley and her friends. I don’t know if she’s convinced that trump is a viable candidate after Jan 6, the stacking indictments, Biden’s moderate centrist progresses, and the Florida nutjobs as a mock trial of what would come from a gop win in '24, but keep the pressure on until the election regardless.