stappernLogic 100
The author of this meme doesn’t understand religion, or only meant Christianity.
My religion doesn’t work this way and has demonstrable proofs.
What religion is that
Islam actually. It’s not a dogmatic religion like Christianity and it relies on more solid proofs than Christianity.
Muhammad split the moon in half?
I have no idea, but that’s not on the list of proofs or evidence.
Sure it is. Just not your list.
Sharpshooter fallacy time: remember only the statements that can be twisted to be sorta true in some contexts. Forget the ones about magic humans splitting planetary bodies in half because they support a counter to your hypothesis.
If you say so. I guess An-Nisa, 34 is completely provable and not dogmatic.
That’s a lame attempt at a cheap shot. I’m talking about how the Quran actually lays out scientific and philosophical arguments for the existence of God. You bringing up something unrelated doesn’t invalidate that. Grow up.
There are no scientific arguments for the existence of god. Science requires evidence, religion requires faith. Religious people assume that scientific questions that we can’t answer is evidence of the hand of god, but it is in fact only evidence that we have more to learn about the universe.
Again, you’re talking about religion when you only mean Christianity. Islam has evidence, unlike other religions, and unlike Christianity there is no conflict between science and Islam.
You have yet to name one piece of Islam’s so-called evidence. Some of the greatest minds in history have tried and failed to prove the existence of god. I will await for you to enlighten us. By all means, please share.
Some of the greatest minds in history have proved the existence of God, but atheists immediately dismiss them because they don’t agree with the conclusion. This is an old rehashed argument, even when atheists become convinced of religion the other atheists retrospectively try to invalidate them. I could show you a long list of evidence but if you don’t have an open mind to actually read it and instead pre-dismiss me before I even post it then I’m just wasting my time. Peace.
You’re telling me you have incontrovertible evidence of god’s existence and won’t share it because you and I will reject them. That’s fucking lazy
I’m going to assume you’re online a lot and this isn’t your first message board. Let me ask you a serious question, how often have you seen someone change their mind online? How many people have changed political parties because someone on a message board reply convinced them? Or changed religious belief?
I’ve been on message boards for literally decades and seen people argue over religion since the beginning. I can’t point to many successful cases of someone changing their mind, even being generous I’d say for every 100 thoughtful posts with long citations, less than one time does someone actually digest it and change their mindset. That shows this isn’t really the forum to have it out, and I’m not going to write a long researched post just to have someone say “you’re wrong and stupid” as a reply once again.
I’m not trying to deprive you, but if you are generally asking in good faith I can point to some good books and YouTube videos or honestly the best way is in the real world; stop into any mosque and ask to speak to the imam, have him explain what Muslims do and don’t believe and WHY they believe it. The answer may surprise you.
I have seen people completely change their minds due directly to interactions in online forums, but you are correct that you will not change my mind because I can guarantee that I have heard variations of all of what you believe to be evidence as I have also been in online forums for decades and wrestled with my own faith early in life.
I get annoyed when people try to use the language of science to bolster their religious beliefs. Science requires simple, repetitive evidence and religion cannot provide that. If it could, we would not be having this discussion as I would share your beliefs.
Your faith should should stand alone. It doesn’t need scientific validation.
Some religions can provide evidence, as I said above. My faith stands alone but it also has evidence to support itself. Your claim that we’d all have the same beliefs if there was evidence is false, because have you ever met human beings before? We can’t even agree on climate change despite overwhelming evidence, let alone the rest. God even says in the Quran that He could make things appear in the sky and it still wouldn’t convince everyone.
At least you admitted you aren’t willing to engage in good faith discussion, so it’s not worth continuing. Peace.
And you are absolutely unwilling to provide examples of your “evidence.” It seems neither of us are willing to engage in good faith.
You’re trolling. You admitted you wouldn’t take any argument seriously and I said I’m not going to waste my time writing something you won’t bother to entertain, so all you’re trying to do is troll me. If anyone else had legitimate questions I said I’d be happy to answer them, but why would I waste my time on you?
And now we’re on to ad hominem attacks. You will not share your “evidence” because you know it will not pass scrutiny.
“you are correct that you will not change my mind”
Why bother writing a reply or showing you evidence when you admitted you won’t even bother to consider it? I love discussion and won’t waste time on trolls.
Your desperate avoidance of giving any actual evidence that will apparently prove your convictions suggests you don’t actually have much faith in them, doesn’t it?
I have changed my mind from online forum discussions.
I changed my stances on policies and politics based on being informed of facts and data. I’ve changed how I detect logical fallacies. I’ve changed where I stand on transit systems and how government can support communities based on arguments centered around what it means to even have government.
I’ve changed my perspectives on liberty and libertarianism. In several cases I went and read books suggested by other posters which changed my perspectives. (A Libertarian Walked into a Bear is a great one).
I’ve read research data and articles people post to support their claims and positions. I’ve read articles from sources that I wouldn’t normally read to debate someone’s claims.
Yes, much of the internet is full of people making fire and forget posts or won’t do any self reflection to allow for their own growth, but how is that any different from the physical world? Learning and growing is hard. Allowing your held beliefs to be actually challenged is even harder. It takes being humble and recognizing that you might be wrong, even about things you’ve known your whole life.
If the claims are supported by evidence, then they’ll stand even in the face of human subbirness and small mindedness, but if the evidence is weak then don’t expect it to really gain traction. If they counter arguments you get are still stronger then your arguments framework, then get better evidence or actually be honest and look at your own position as well. I’ve had that one happen too. I posted a position online, got shot down, and after reflecting I found I was wrong. It happens. That’s part of being human.
By 'lays out" you mean “kinda close if you squint”.
No it doesn’t they come from the same Abrahamic source, you’re fairytale is no more real than theirs.
Read what I said again more carefully. Islam doesn’t rely on the same proofs of Christianity or Judaism even though they have overlapping beliefs. My religion does not require you to believe a man died and came back to life, but instead points to observable scientific and philosophical truths as its basis.
“observable scientific and philosophical truths” cannot point to an existence of any sort of higher power, by the very definition of a higher power. All you can do is believe in a higher power, all religion is dogma.
That’s not at all true by definition, and you’re embracing a Christian mindset if you think that way. Other religions don’t ask you to turn off your brain and embrace dogma. Literally every aspect of Islam is up for debate and relies on reasoning and evidence to back it up.
It’s not a dogmatic religion like Christianity and it relies on more solid proofs than Christianity.
Oof.
Proof like?
Honestly that would take too long to explain in a Lemmy comment, this is something that would require talking in person or reading some long form pieces. The short answer is that the Quran makes raises multiple rhetorical questions to demonstrate the existence of a Creator and even references some scientific points that people 1400 years ago would not have known (from space to embryology to future prophesies that came true). If one were to send a message to Earth 1400 years ago to demonstrate that it’s not fake, this would fit.
Boom. There it is.
Sorry but Islam does not have demonstrable, unfalsifiable proof. Just another religion.
Ok so you got nothing
“Prove to me that Covid vaccines work. Oh, you won’t summarize immunology and epidemiology in a single Lemmy post while people call you a liar? So there’s no proof then.”
That’s how you sound. I’m not going to AGAIN write a long post proving something that nobody here will bother to read.
Just name 1
15 Scientific Quran Miracles That Will Blow Your Mind
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None of those prove anything, they’re just random statements that are true (ish), especially the one about pairs is funny because that completely depends on whatever you consider a pair and what you even consider real
Hmm ok none of those claims would prove that Islam is real and god is a thing. Can you tell us why you think they did?
I suppose we shall agree to disagree.
So your evidence consists of a few random observations and vague platitudes from the Koran that align with generally accepted science if you squint REALLY hard.
smh I can see why you were reluctant to share, but it’s about what I expected.
I’m no scholar of science (like scholar of religion), but I think science allow ordinary people to share science understanding.
So about the COVID vaccines, I’ll just say, chickenpox vaccines stopped deaths from smallpox. So, COVID vaccines will stop deaths from COVID. And anyone can come at me with better facts and numbers.
But religion just disallow all discussions, only scholar can do teachings. This one sided teaching, doesn’t allow fact checking, hence the stupid me won’t believe easily. (We living in this era should not be easily believe everything to avoid scam, so it’s just an unbiased practice of scepticism, nothing personal against religion) I think.
HypnoctopusIf you’re trolling, you’re doing a great job.
For the example of “clairvoyance” into future, does that mean anyone or thing coincidentally exhibit “clairvoyance” becomes something holy?
So to say, we appreciate supernatural beings, but we don’t follow everything else beside that “clairvoyance” ability?
Let say everything bound to happen, even superbeings can’t change it. Then we have option to try prescribed method or science method, to deal with such arrangement. No harm trying, since even god doesn’t want to change the bad things away, anyways, right. Might as well die trying the science ways. If such, what else left for people to follow those teachings, if they don’t want to explain such teachings’ reasons? Right?
Just my thoughts…
Wrong
faith“not my religion!”