BrikoXPutin tells Poland any aggression against Belarus is attack on Russia
TurnItOff_OnAgainI’m not up to snuff on NATO regulations. As I understand it, if a NATO nation gets attacked, the rest of them are obliged to defend, correct? What happens if that nation is “the aggressor”. Like in this situation if Poland were to do a first strike against Belarus or Russia and they respond attacking Poland, is the rest of NATO obliged to help defend Poland?
photonic_sorcererNo, NATO doesn’t interfere if a member starts a war. It’s a defensive treaty. That said, Poland alone wouldn’t be able to do much, and democracies rarely openly declare war.
PyrHowever what if a NATO country starts a war with Belarus, and then Russia attacks the NATO country?
The NATO country would never have initiated a war with Russia, they would have initiated it with Belarus.
Does a NATO country automatically become vulnerable if they have any wars currently ongoing? Because that would mean Russia could have attacked America during the war in Afghanistan and NATO would not have been able to get involved.
It’s probably a case where Russia could attack Poland’s forces in Belarus but attacking Polish soil would involve article 5.
The way it works is that the attacked country invokes article 5. If the country does it then other members are obligated to help. If they don't, they are undermining NATO.
Having said that, NATO doesn't specify how countries supposed to respond. It could be something to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney_War
I think putin sending Wagner to Belarus is indeed thinking to force Belarus to attack Poland or a Baltic states and see what happens. Of course that would be simple, it would be Belarus vs NATO, and would end up quickly.
So he is tipping the scale and saying that attacking Belarus will be also attacking Russia, hoping that it will be ignored like two Russian missiles hitting Poland. If it won't be ignored, then he is just sacrificing Belarus.
I had a deployment with Polish soldiers. They are a modern and extremely capable defensive force. It would likely turn into the same thing we’re seeing in Ukraine (smaller force that is well trained and better supplied vs sending a lot of bodies and old tech). I don’t think we’ll ever see a Polish led force invading Belarus or Russia without a massive NATO backing and a lot of foreign units already on the way to support them. Defensively, they will fuck you up. Offensively, they don’t have the man power to go deep into enemy territory.
The Polish have historical grudges with Russia and are chomping at the bit to hurt some Russians. It is probably NATO that is holding them back from sending units to Ukraine
As long as an attack happens on NATO territory, it’s considered an act of war. Even if the NATO country is the aggressor. Ideally the aggressing country would be suspended before they could invoke article 5.
Imagine how dangerous it would be if NATO was, instead of a defensive pact, a transnational nuclear military helmed by the world’s foremost genocidal empire that marches across Europe via propaganda and coup d’etats towards it’s ultimate goal of encircling Russia and China. What a cluster fuck that would be? In that reality, if a member state launched a war of aggression NATO would probably support it and continue escalation.
Luckily, we know NATO is a defensive force because it didn’t launch multiple wars of aggression, drop depleted uranium on civilians, and is democratically accountable.
Oh lemmygrad is leaking.
☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆Oh reddit is leaking
Yes, it is.
BTW: since lemmy (and obviously lemmygrad) was created by communists. Can you explain to me what's so communist about Russia that you and others are so fiercely defending? How are they different from that "imperialistic pig" that is the US? Is it because Russia is fascist now?
Looks to me like you never cared about communist ideology, and it was always about supporting Muscovies and totalitarism.
Nobody said Russia is communist, nor is anybody defending Russia here. People are just explaining to you that the reality is more complex than the propaganda narrative you’ve guzzled makes it out to be. The only fascists here are the ones who think that people of Ukraine should be used in a proxy war against Russia by the west. So, maybe stop projecting there.
Said the guy with a thumbnail with big CCCP on his forehead.
Standard bullshit pretending that you care about people, dismissing that Ukrainians are fighting for their right to exist. After the war crimes committed, after Bucha and many other places, after Russia admitted to kidnapping nearly a million of Ukrainian children (textbook definition of genocide), after ICC charges for war crimes.
But ok, please outline exactly what should be the peace agreement, who gets what (don't skip any details).
And second, please tell me how Russia, will honor that agreement, when it broke every single one going back to 90s, including Budapest Memorandum where it signed that it will respect Ukraine's borders. The one that it broke in 2003, 2014, 2018 and 2022 (when it decided to go after the rest of Ukraine).
The fact that you made a personal attack followed by a bunch of drivel there that has nothing to do with anything I said is really in character fro you.
What personal attack? Are you saying your thumbnail is offensive to you?
You don't answer these questions, because you don't have a good answer that doesn't show that you are supporting the genocide being committed by Russia.
My thumbnail isn’t offensive to me, but a reddit troll talking about it in pejorative fashion is. And your “questions” have nothing to do with anything I said here. However, last I checked it was Ukraine committing ethnic cleansing in Donbas as CNN reported back in 2014. Also, Russia should be held to the same standard western “democracies” are held to. The ones that invaded Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, Syria, and Afghanistan. In fact, US currently occupies a greater percentage of Syria than Russia is occupying of Ukraine while stealing food and oil from the people of Syria. Western war on terror has massacred over 6 million people, and nobody holds a candle to US when it comes to killing civilians. In fact, UK is currently torturing a journalist who exposed US war crimes in Iraq.
But I guess Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is different from all that because people in Ukraine have blond hair and blue eyes, so a bunch western racists started caring about wars all of a sudden. You have no moral high ground when your own country commits far worse atrocities than what Russia is doing.
Stop changing the topics and answer that simple question. You are all about peace, so tell me:
ghost_laptopAgain you didn’t address a single point and diverted everything with pseudo arguments.
did you forgot to switch the accounts?
I’m not changing any topics. I’m pointing out the how utterly morally bankrupt your position is. The reality of the situation is that it was possible to avoid the war, and all Ukraine had to do to achieve that was to stay neutral. Ukraine joining NATO was a red line for Russia, and this is something that was well known both in Ukraine and in the west. Countless western experts have been warning about this for many decades. This only became controversial to mention after the war started. Here’s what Chomsky has to say on the issue recently:
truthout.org/…/us-approach-to-ukraine-and-russia-…
truthout.org/…/noam-chomsky-us-military-escalatio…
50 prominent foreign policy experts (former senators, military officers, diplomats, etc.) sent an open letter to Clinton outlining their opposition to NATO expansion back in 1997:___
George Kennan, arguably America's greatest ever foreign policy strategist, the architect of the U.S. cold war strategy warned that NATO expansion was a "tragic mistake" that ought to ultimately provoke a "bad reaction from Russia" back in 1998.___
Jack F. Matlock Jr., US Ambassador to the Soviet Union from 1987-1991, warning in 1997 that NATO expansion was "the most profound strategic blunder, [encouraging] a chain of events that could produce the most serious security threat [...] since the Soviet Union collapsed"___
Even Gorbachev warned about this. All these experts were marginalized, silenced, and ignored. Yet, now people are trying to rewrite history and pretend that Russia attacked Ukraine out of the blue and completely unprovoked.
The reality is that it’s Ukraine that refused to implement Minsk while attacking civilian population in Donbas as CNN reported at the time. Now, western and Ukrainian leaders have actually admitted on record that they never planned to implement Minsk and it was a play for time.
You must have something in mind, or are you saying that you have no idea what you’re talking about?
I’m saying that it’s either you who has no idea what you’re talking about or you’re just an outright liar. Either way it’s a pretty bad look. War happened because of people like you, and now hundreds of thousands of people have died, millions have had their lives ruined, and Ukraine will lose a huge chunk of its territory in the best case scenario. All of this happened because the west and Ukraine refused to negotiate.
It is so odd seeing so many supposed communists defending the fascist Russian state. Lenin is spinning in his mausoleum.
ImmortanStalinRespect the thin blue line! Team NATO: World Police!
ITT: “But sometimes, dicks fuck assholes!”
Your comment belies your ignorance of how NATO works.
Enlighten me.
PP in all examples intermixes NATO with US military.
In its history NATO article 5 was invoked only once.
That doesn’t dispute my comment though? If Poland were to attack Belarus and Belarus retaliated with an attack on Polish soil, they could absolutely invoke article 5.
Unless there is a cover up like happened with those Russian missiles that hit Poland.
HupfThis night for the first time Polish regular soldiers fired on our territory. Since 5:45 a.m. we have been returning the fire, and from now on bombs will be met by bombs.
GraniteCan you cite a source?
This was Hitler speech on September 1st, 1939.
That’s one very weird source you’re linking.
It is from a famous speech of Hitler that marked the beginning of the second world war.
Krause [he/him]It’s from a brave hero that fought for Ukrainian independence from the Soviet Union in WW2 alongside Stepan Bandera, he’s remembered very fondly in Ukraine today!
Liberal citing Hitler. Checks out.
Those who ignore history are bound to repeat it.
As far as I remember history tells us that liberal governments turned fascists.
Nazi party was as socialist as North Korea is democratic
I don’t know where you get the idea from that I’ve said the Nazis were socialists, and I don’t know where you get the idea that social democracies, a.k.a. liberal democracies, a.k.a. dictatorship of the bourgeoisie are socialists. Again, as far as I remember, history tells us that the bourgeois governments are the ones who turn fascist. History repeats itself: Social-Democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism.
Explains why western geniuses got into a land war with Russia once again. Checks out.
JaysynPutin says a lot of stupid shit he's incapable
of doing, why would this be different?
of doing, why would this be different?
LuciFuck Putin
No, not like that!!
Alina Kabaeva: «What do you mean not like that?»
Username does not check out
Ok, Karen.
automaterWell the troll farms have found lemmy I guess
It’s unfortunate, but kinda inevitable. I’m sure there’s a graduate student somewhere whose thesis is on approximating the popularity and diversity of social platforms necessary before trolls swoop in.
Yup, lots of burger empire shills have come here from reddit now. We were doing fine without you.
Lol what?
MaggiWuerzeDon’t feed him
I have a suspicion of what is going on in Putin’s head:
- 2021/early 2022, he thought his military was amazing and could take Ukraine in 3 days
- that went horribly wrong, russian tanks and other weapons exploded all over
- only two options: western weapons are incredibly better than russian weapons, or russian generals are incompetent
- fire generals left and right over 2022, it doesn’t really get any better
- winter break
- 2023, the long dreaded Ukrainian counter offensive is coming
- West has given Ukraine only a handful of weapons, not enough for a sweeping, brutal offensive
- Ukrainian offensive stalls
- Putin’s advisors show him the same destroyed Bradley and Leopard 2 tanks all over, from different angles
- "Holy shitballs russian weapons aren’t inferior to western weapons, it really was just stupid generals, we really destroyed hundreds of NATO tanks"
- fuck yeah, with that sorted out I can take on the baltics and Poland
_I_Can't wait for Season 2. Season 2 has been confirmed, right?
Putin's standup gig is very funny. He should quit his day job & take it up fulltime.
Idk, last guy who laughed at him had his country invaded.
Putin's been invading Ukraine since 2014. His 3-day special operation is going on for 514 days, had him running from a mutiny (I need a ride,not ammo!), has killed 241,330 Russians, has the Kerch bridge opening and closing like a fucking accordion, and is a global criminal. And all against a country with no nukes, no navy, barely an airforce, a tenth of Russia's defense budget, and 28 times smaller than Russia.
He's losing so badly, the whole world's laughing at him.
As I said earlier, Putin's standup act is very funny.