Mastodawn

has anyone ever thought of simply making an operating system DISABLE caps lock on the lock screen? (or at least just disregard it?)

1. lots of operating systems are capable of *detecting* that caps lock is accidentally on

2. we know this because the O/S will often display a notification message, typically even smaller and even less visible than the minuscule red text in you have to search for in a browser when a form won't submit as you try to click "next")

3. nobody has ever used an all-caps password in their life

4. is this crazy? am i crazy? i feel like this could be an idea. i hereby release all claims of IP and forswear all royalties in perpetuity... just maybe consider implementing this, someone, eh?

bhtooefr Jul 21, 2023

@deviantollam sadly I know people who use caps lock instead of shift to type caps, and they’d be entirely fucked up by that

Deviant Ollam Jul 21, 2023

@bhtooefr heh, then how about we make it an option in the O/S ?

bhtooefr Jul 21, 2023

@deviantollam problem then is, the logged out environment is where there’s supposed to be minimum changeable state (we all know there’s tons of state, but they keep an illusion of there being nothing changeable)

and knowing Windows, I could see a dozen hilarious vulns in the configuration dialog that result in something running as NT AUTHORITY\SYSTEM (look how long it took for them to harden the accessibility options in the login environment)

Chris Burgess Jul 21, 2023

@bhtooefr @deviantollam & this OS option's visible impact might as well say "FREE PASSWORD HINT: LOTS OF CAPS"

but really I think (3) is the assumption to check, extrapolating from "passwords i've seen" to "everyone's" is a leap (not that I disagree, I just am in the "we can't know this" camp)

Colin Jul 21, 2023

@bhtooefr @deviantollam there was a kid that did this thru middle and highschool and drove me crazy. Even for a single capital letter (anywhere) would turn on Caps lock and back off.
Yes we all bugged him about Shift key, did not matter.

meowy catgirl Jul 21, 2023

@deviantollam i assume they're worried it'll break someone's spacebar heating

princess pancake

@nyanotech @deviantollam You're laughing but I actually dealt a problem where a guy used caps lock to enter a part of his password

Deviant Ollam Jul 22, 2023

@nyanotech there are space bar heaters?

Matt Mullins Jul 22, 2023

@deviantollam @nyanotech https://xkcd.com/1172/

Workflow

xkcd

Deviant Ollam Jul 22, 2023

@mokomull @nyanotech hahaha, oh yeah, right =)

farhaven 🇪🇺Jul 21, 2023

@deviantollam That could become an accessibility issue. I know of quite a few people with motor problems (stroke and such) who can only type with one hand. They use caps as a "type the next key in caps" key so they don't have to press two at the same time.

@farhaven @deviantollam the compromise case here is do what Windows already does with numlock, except in reverse.

farhaven 🇪🇺Jul 21, 2023

@mav @deviantollam
What do they do? It's been a while since I've touched a Windows machine with a numpad, so I'm a bit out of the loop there :)

@farhaven @deviantollam oh, windows just enables numlock on boot if it's not enabled already. I'm guessing based on watching literally hundreds of students type in their password, it's because damn near everyone ends passwords with numbers and uses the numpad to type them.

@deviantollam I ... have used an all caps password before and am probably still alive. Probably.

This is still a totally reasonable suggestion ,just sayin

Tröglödÿt Jul 21, 2023

seems iffy to have some auth frontend try to switch bytes if they appear to be capital letters in whatever charset or other

i've often used all-caps parts in passwords, it's a nice way to spice things up a bit

TCMBC Jul 21, 2023

@deviantollam I'd bet it is for legacy monospace terminals and being able to emulate them from console. Try google search on "unix" and "monospace" and "terminal" : it is really old.

Ages ago, (probably on SunOS) I seem to remember trying login using all caps, and the result was the telnet session switched to all upper case with prompts, and sessions appeared all upper case. Later, all caps username resulted in all-caps password, but auth would fail, and return back to mixed case login prompt.

Assuming this is true, it seems like:
Q: "why do we need buggy whip support for our cars?
A: "Oh, that is because of Jed. He uses 4 horses to pull his car over rough terrain, so he still needs it.

I *do* see some OS console login support notices, "WARNING CAPS LOCK IS ON" when you try to login on console.

Good luck!

Krux Jul 21, 2023

@TCMBC @deviantollam Cisco routers do the same thing. If you login with all uppercase, then your session is all uppercase. I assumed it is an accessibility thing.

TCMBC Jul 21, 2023

@krux @deviantollam Here are some more details from 2005 on HP:
(Sorry, this site appears to require javascript to display content)
https://community.hpe.com/t5/operating-system-hp-ux/login-problem-capital-letters/td-p/4925010

TCMBC Jul 21, 2023

@krux @deviantollam Also, if you login from console (tty/ptty not X11/GUI) and you accidentally use upper case for username, and then all failure remain all upper case with USERNAME and PASSWORD, you can sometimes (depends on OS and termcap and login) press "control-d" or sometimes "control-c" to ask that login attached to that tty/ptty to effectively SIGHUP or restart and start over with mixed case "Login" and "Password" supported again.

@deviantollam how about we yeet the caps lock key into the sun? NO ONE EVER USES IT.... hey, wait a minute....

Paul Sanders 😎Jul 21, 2023

@deviantollam Sooo many people use caps lock instead of shift. So it’s probably down to user experience

Technology Connections Jul 21, 2023

@deviantollam having literally just watched my mom deal with changing her password under her company's inane password requirements, involving all the good tropes of uppercase, special characters, numbers, and don't-you-dare-reuse-anything-you've-ever-used, capslock as a means of entering such passwords is, from her perspective, an accessibility requirement.

Technology Connections Jul 21, 2023

@deviantollam to be fair, I disagree with using capslock in place of shift for this application, but that's how her brain works and I guarantee she's not alone

Sybren Stüvel 🧡🤍Jul 21, 2023

@TechConnectify @deviantollam

(source: https://xkcd.com/1172/)

Workflow

xkcd

Sleeplessone Jul 21, 2023

@deviantollam @TechConnectify 100% I have sat and watched someone enter their password toggling caps lock on and off for each capital letter even if there isn’t multiple capitals in a row.

fluffy 💜Jul 21, 2023

@TechConnectify @deviantollam also on most OSes it’s the only way to get a sticky shift key on the lock screen which is required for people with mobility impairments. Sticky keys are great once you’re logged in but you still need to be able to log in.

Deviant Ollam Jul 22, 2023

@TechConnectify Yes, I love all of the voices who responded pointing out the Caps Lock can be an accessibility need.

Not to mention the number of people who chimed in with that XKCD comic. 😂

It reminds us that many changes, perhaps all changes, may deserve a toggle function so that users can revert them in edge cases.

Kyle Fox Jul 22, 2023

@deviantollam @TechConnectify Solution: disable caps-lock when the password field is cleared or instantiated. The user can toggle it after that, but its not stuck on at the beginning or through several password tries.

It'd also help if Windows could make sure the warning is high contrast on backgrounds that match the text colours.

Tryst 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 🇮🇪

ms_asexual_flag

@thekayfox @deviantollam @TechConnectify This seems better because it's adding utility rather than taking it away, and leverages an existing feature.

Other nags would also benefit from this treatment, like the "you left your lights on" chime on cars. If it's smart enough to know that I've left my lights on, it should be smart enough to switch them off for me. If I do need them, I can always switch them back on after.

Jeff Moss Jul 21, 2023

@deviantollam How many times did you try to log in before you realized caps lock was on? 😜

@thedarktangent @deviantollam FWIW, there are historic operating systems where commands in the shell needed to be in all-caps. TRS-DOS comes to mind, as does the Commodore-64, which didn't really do different cases in the shell, in the modern sense.

Deviant Ollam Jul 22, 2023

@thedarktangent that number is greater than zero. 😂

Matthew McPherrin Jul 21, 2023

@deviantollam Facebook allows you use two passwords to log in: Your actual password, and one that's the same but if you had capslock on. I think more things should probably use that idea.

Deviant Ollam Jul 22, 2023

@mattm now THAT is pretty fascinating.

better stop now before I start liking things that Meta is doing. 😂

@deviantollam The system just needs to toUpper() the input and truncate to 8 characters and it's Pine Solved.

Dan Sugalski Jul 21, 2023

@deviantollam I have vague and old memories of DEC operating systems (RSTS-E specifically) actually doing this -- if caps lock was on during login it basically swapped its behaviour. (Though it's been 30 years so I wouldn't be entirely surprised to find I'm remembering wrong)

Colonel Panic 🌻🇺🇦

@deviantollam Interesting idea. If it were an option, I'd enable it, with one modification that could help with the accessibility concerns - a long hold of the key would enable/disable it (maybe with a sound to confirm?)

Ace Gayhart Jul 21, 2023

@deviantollam I've seen too many people that use caps lock instead of shift (either due to inexperience or physical limitations).

Tadonic the Flautulent Jul 21, 2023

@deviantollam I have the following line in my ~/.bashrc, which helps considerably:

setxkbmap -option caps:none

Tadonic the Flautulent Jul 21, 2023

@deviantollam (It was even more annoying, once upon a time, when pressing <shift> while <caps lock> was on would produce lower-case letters. Maybe that still happens on some systems but I don't encounter any longer.)

MarkD Jul 21, 2023

@deviantollam We emacs and bash users long ago remapped CAPS LOCK (one of the largest keypads on a keyboard) to Ctrl.

Not only is it an easier target to hit with large banana fingers, it's ergonomically much better located for your fingers than the traditional location of the Ctrl keys.

bill gyatts Jul 21, 2023

@deviantollam i think we should just get rid of caps lock

₦̜̼̈ͧ €̬̚ ̼̔ℝ̖̝͋ͥ̒ Đ̿͑ 🧠🏴‍☠️Jul 22, 2023

@deviantollam on my system I remap caps lock to escape (vim life 🤓), with [shift+caps lock] to enable caps lock. Other than database administrators, who actually uses caps lock anyways? Its got a great deal of prime keyboard real estate too.. #CancelCapsLock ✊

@deviantollam Hear me out. What if we just got rid of capslock entirely.

Ludovic Archivist Lagouardette Jul 22, 2023

Another issue beyond accessibility is that you may log in a system with different keyboards and keyboard layouts, which may require modifiers to type the password

Robots can be gay deal with it Jul 22, 2023

@deviantollam Fun Fact: I had that very Windows 11 prompt mysteriously fail, leaving me unable to log into my own computer.

I threw Linux at the problem. Linux may have its issues, but not forgetting what your "pin" is and trying to open the Windows Store for some reason.

ZahmbieND Jul 22, 2023

@deviantollam I'm pretty sure I know some people who might use caps lock for their passwords, as a habit from the days when our Active Directory domain was all caps and case sensitive, so users would type the DOMAIN\USERNAME with capslock, then leave caps lock on to type their password.

Unixorn - 90% Snark by weight Jul 22, 2023

When I broke my wrist and elbow I used capslock for the first few days that the cast was on until I came up with a better solution.

I'm sure there are people with fine motor tremors or other disabilities that do the same.

It would be nice if it popped up an inch-high capslock symbol though.

Jeff Jul 22, 2023

@deviantollam All my machines and some of my keyboards are setup so that my CapsLock key is actually an Escape key. So no, you are not crazy and some of us (I am not the only one who does this) go to great lengths to make sure CapsLock isn't a thing.

But, usually the component taking in the password and checking for CapsLock is very different from the one that implements it, and often there are permission problems or even just design problems in connecting those two.

Insomniaclockpicker Jul 24, 2023

@deviantollam for what it’s worth, MacOS displays a caps lock icon in the password field.

This feature is great and would fix all your complaints and work for everyone …. If those that needed this most also knew how to touch type and not hung and peck.

Michel Jul 25, 2023

@deviantollam
I now some people, which do not use PC often, which never use shift but every time activate and deactivate capslock if they use an uppercase letter.

stusic Jul 25, 2023

I don't know how much it actually effects anything, but I've always had a password that's easy to remember, uses a mix of capital letters, numbers and symbols, but... I type the password with caps lock on. Dunno why really, but always assumed if someone saw me type it in or there was a key logger (I don't even know if a key logger picks up whether a key is capital or not), they might not pick up that the caps lock was on. Maybe I'm an idiot.

Bignerd Lee Jul 28, 2023

@deviantollam Just disable caps lock on your keyboard. For me it's only purpose is to be an accident