алсааас [she/her]Liberal Economics be like
Also billions of tax payers money with the tac burden being disproportionately heavy for the 90% while the 10% pay less and less taxes the richer they are
30isthenew29I like how on lemmy you see both how much upvotes and downvotes you have, on reddit you could have a score of 1 and don’t know much has happened, but with lemmy you could have 50 upvotes and 49 downvotes, making you really think about it…
imaqtpieNot only that, but admins and kbinners can actually view which accounts upvoted and which downvoted each comment.
I thought everyone can see it? Not just admin
Everybody can see the number of upvotes and downvotes. But on kbin you can literally see which accounts upvoted and which accounts downvoted.
Can you see who downvoted you right now? And don’t guess me, that’s not fair 😅
All interesting things, I’m gonna learn more about these things.
What a kbinner?
Liberal economics be like let’s get rid of capitalism
No, those are socialist economics.
To-may-to to-mah-to
Yeah that’s the scam. Not actually liberal
It appears you havent read your own link there.
I don’t know if I can be clearer than it is. It’s very obvious that capitalism is not compatible with liberalism. Conservative capitalists try to use terms like “economic liberalism” with results showing the opposite
Liberals espouse various views … but generally support private property, market economies, … economic and political freedom …
and when we click on “economic freedom”:
One approach to economic freedom comes from the liberal tradition emphasizing free markets, free trade, and private property under free enterprise.
The commenter suggesting you should read your own links was right…
Thinking is also allowed. Is capitalism producing that freedom? No. It’s just a buzzword for them
Oh thats what you meant lol. I thought you meant “Not actually liberal” in the sense that the label of the political ideology I put forth for them is wrong, you meant they aren’t actually for freedom which is the literal meaning of the word.
Ah ok
And I do mean the political ideology where liberalism means the things included in liberalism.
It’s just that the later rightwing/capitalist highjackings of the word aren’t true.
Liberalism has always included a free market economy though? That’s what Marx was mainly against, a free economy where the means of production are owned by those with the means to purchase them on the free market. He was a “liberal” in the 19th century sense in that he was in favour of a free press and abolishment of the monarchy but he saw private ownership of land/factories etc as problematic because of the serfdom it leads to. These ideas however are now really mainstream and when people talk about “liberals” they mean those who are in favour of a free market economy. Free as in “i am free to buy what I want regardless of my birth” not free as in “I am entitled to basic human necessities required to live a free life even if I can’t afford them” is what most people mean when they talk about liberal ideology.
And that’s the issue. The latter, of being free to even have the the possibility for economic freedom, is liberalism in it’s essence. And that’s not happening in capitalism. Under capitalism only the rich are free, so liberalism happens outside of capitalism.
No it isn’t. That’s just not what people mean when they talk about “liberalism”. Liberalism’s core idea is around a free (liberal) market. Just like how socialism’s core idea is around a collectivization of the means of production. You cant be a capitalist socialist and you cant be an anticapitalist liberal. It doesn’t make sense.
Tying liberalism to the market is an afterthought. Its core is in social freedom.
Only the rich are free in capitalism
If it is its not mine. This is what people talk about when they talk about liberalism. If you want to use the word differently you should clarify that from the start b
People should read up on liberalism and stick to it instead of capitalist newspeak
If people “read up on liberalism” they’d be reading the definition of it which includes free market capitalism, because this is what textbooks on the matter will associate with liberalism. Not your definition of it which is shared by almost no one.
Even the Wikipedia article is 95% social freedom. And any critical person could see that when it mentions the additional economic liberalism is not possible under capitalism
That’s left or socialist. Left doesn’t equal liberal.
Left doesn’t equal liberal and liberal equals not capitalism. Both are true
While this is definitely a true flow chart, the headline is misguided. Considering the only difference between the right and left when it comes to corporations is how honest they are about their policies. The right says they will do it, the left says they won’t, and then they both do exactly the same shit.
that’s not a left/right divide. it’s a right/further right divide. And even staunch conservatives follow (neo)liberal economics.
This is a flow chart from a leftists/socialist perspective
This is a flow chart from a leftist/socialist perspective
Then you have socialist governments wasting billions of the tax payer money to rescue shitty state owned companies. Look at Portugal with TAP and Efacec. Socialist party, billions of the tax payer money going down the drain. Those companies were partially or privately owned and the socialist party only rescued it to save these private owners investments.
Liberal economics would actually be telling them to go fuck themselves and give no money to them.
Socialism is defined as the working people either directly owning or democratically controlling the economy. I don’t see how that is the case in any “socialist” country at the moment (speaking of the nordic ones, Portugal, China etc)
One thing is the theory, other is how it always works out.
Hey hey hey now don’t bring us Nordic countries into this🥺
sorry to disillusion you but your system is capitalism with a nice coat of paint over it. It’s still based on exploitation, imperialism, neo-colonialism and oil/fossil fuel money
Lmao you are literally the ‘but that’s not real socialism/communism’ meme right now 🤣
Imma bring up an example to maybe explain it easier. North Korea calls themselves the “Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea”. In their official understanding/rhetoric they have a democracy in which the administration acts in the interest of the people instead of a few bureaucratic elites.
If someone now said “Look at what that democracy does to a country!!11!”, would you not object?
God damn that is an excellent, concise refutation of his tired point. Definitely going to borrow that argument in the future
yeah… the cognitive dissonance hurts
This comment will not go down well here, this site leans left pretty heavily and it’s easy to upset them lol
very smart IdiotWhile this is true, most left leaning people still know how economy works and why it should keep on working.
Germany is considered heavily left leaning nowadays. Especially in comparison to countries like the US. But that doesn’t mean that Germans are suddenly borderline communist.
lol, who in their right mind considers germany as left leaning?
Yankees.
I am German. And Bernie sanders was even more konservative than us.
Probably, but considering Germany as a left-leaning country is still rich.
It sounds more like your perception of Germany is a little displaced from reality.
It for sure is not. Germany is a social democracy. One of the most advanced in Europe.
Therefore Germany is heavily left leaning.
I don’t know what you would call the left at this point… Communism?
But the population and therefore our government which get voted from them is more conservative. And that’s not even calculating the swing to the right. And the established far right networks our executive like police, military and intelligent services doesn’t give a picture of a left leaning country. Germany had a good foundation, I give you that, but we have now decades of conservative governments who slowly undermined it.
So maybe left leaning if you compare it to an absolute monarchy, but if you differentiate and look closer, Germany is far from an left leaning country.
But the population and therefore our government which get voted from them is more conservative. And that’s not even calculating the swing to the right.
Not quite sure, are we talking about Germany now? Because SPD and Grüne is definitely not konservative. And the AfD, considering the sei g to the right, is actually more left leaning than the CDU and FDP considering the economical standpoints.
And the established far right networks our executive like police, military and intelligent services doesn’t give a picture of a left leaning country.
If we are still talking about Germany, Germany has reduced the Police and the Military over the last decades further and further. We currently have real issues now. No wonder that overworking policemen are leaning further to the right, to parties that would eventually enlarge the policeforce.
Germany had a good foundation, I give you that, but we have now decades of conservative governments who slowly undermined it.
We should not forget that the SPD and CDU were once both considered the conservative parties. And most of the foundations you mention were build under their lead. It’s been a recent development that CDU and SPD became rather left leaning in their appearance, but simultaneously messing up the systems.
So maybe left leaning if you compare it to an absolute monarchy, but if you differentiate and look closer, Germany is far from an left leaning country.
And here we drastically disagree. Germany is a heavily left leaning European country. And by European standard this also means globally.
At least 20% wants to vote fascist the next election and another 27% like to vote for the right leaning conservative party CDU/CSU. Germany is definitely not left leaning.
Man, you don’t even know what facism means. Parts of my family survived national socialism in Austria, communism in Russia, and some fled from east Germany to west Germany a week before the wall was build. Leaving everything behind for a third time in their life.
Don’t use facism as a term if you have no idea what it is. Because the AfD is not a facist party. Some members (very few, but more than in other parties) might be considered racist. Their political belief ist rather libertarian. They are claiming to be for a system similar to the Swiss. At the same time they are advocating for highly conservative values (family, work, immigration and belief). So the AfD could be considered a highly konservative and tiny bit libertarian party. And still. Comparing the AfD to the Democratic Party in the US, then the AfD suddenly looks like left leaning. Just take a look at immigration laws by the Democratic Party.
And now addressing your claim that the CDU/CSU are right leaning conservatives: They are mild conservatives at best. The party changed a lot under Merkels influence. Their values are very similar to the slightly more konservative ÖDP (a clone party of die Grüne with more competent personnel - highly educated people).
And yes, Germany therefore is left leaning. As I already said. Germany is ultra left leaning from a US standpoint. And taking a look at the rest of Europe, one quickly realised that Germany is as well more left leaning than 80% of Europe. Even the Scandinavians are voting increasingly for right wing parties. Much more so than Germans.
This is also supported by the financial situation of the average citizen.
German citizens are on average much poorer than Italians for example. Even though Italy is less financially stable than Germany. This is due to their political beliefs. Germans are far more willing to pay more in taxes than Italiens for example.
Germany is heavily left leaning and isn’t the most voted party (SPD) leftist?
In the name sure.
In the party even are some left leaning politicians.
But the body of it and our Bundeskanzler, are more centrist than left.
The upholding of the status quo is more important for them than improving social situations and tackling leftist points like wealth inequality, so I personally wouldn’t call them left leaning
Wealth equality isn’t such a leftist point. I mean, leftists think it is but every decent liberal will be against for the fact that most of the wealth belongs to 1% of the people. It means the free market isn’t really working.
It was just an example, I wasn’t claiming that it is an exclusive talking point for the left.
But then you still would probably agree that an party which ignores such problems isn’t really leftist, nor liberal.
They are retarded. Period. Also people who think this will be solved with taxes, regulations, etc are part of the problem. Most regulations and taxes only help the rich. Regulations make harder for new and small businesses to grow bigger since they don’t have the means to comply with the regulations. Taxes usually break the social elevator, since at some point when you’re climbing they get so big you can’t really afford to keep growing richer and still pay them.
What we need? Less and more precise regulations that doesn’t cost a shitload of money to comply. Less and simpler taxation policies.
Where will you go when you realize the majority of people don’t subscribe to the right wing scam?
“Right wing scam”. Meanwhile the heavy you go on the leftism the more poverty you get. It’s not opinion, its facts.
YellowtoOrange…you say without giving a fact to base your comment.
Can you see that you’re a hypocrite?
Your comment is retatded, btw.
They usually do this because other things depend on it, so it cannot collapse or they percieve it as such/ that that is important/ that for example workers can’t go somewhere else. They don’t see how the benefits don’t outweigh the risk.
You see that’s a fallacy I see lefts giving to justify the state literally throwing billions down the drain. That these workers won’t find anything else to do. It’s not true and I can give you a true example. Portugal has a huge bet on tourism that blew up in our face when COVID hit. The workers in the sector lost their job all at once and had to find somewhere else to work, and they did successfully. One of the challenges the sector had when returning to normally was the fact it didn’t had people wanting to work in the sector. And currently the people that are mostly immigrants.