NevermindNoMind

So where are we all supposed to go now?

https://lemmy.world/post/1027821

So where are we all supposed to go now? - Lemmy.world

> Add it all up, and the social web is changing in three crucial ways: It’s going from public to private; it’s shifting from growth and engagement, which broadly involves building good products that people like, to increasing revenue no matter the tradeoff; and it’s turning into an entertainment business. It turns out there’s no money in connecting people to each other, but there’s a fortune in putting ads between vertically scrolling videos that lots of people watch. So the “social media” era is giving way to the “media with a comments section” era, and everything is an entertainment platform now. Or, I guess, trying to do payments. Sometimes both. It gets weird. > As far as how humans connect to one another, what’s next appears to be group chats and private messaging and forums, returning back to a time when we mostly just talked to the people we know. Maybe that’s a better, less problematic way to live life. Maybe feed and algorithms and the “global town square” were a bad idea. But I find myself desperately looking for new places that feel like everyone’s there. The place where I can simultaneously hear about NBA rumors and cool new AI apps, where I can chat with my friends and coworkers and Nicki Minaj. For a while, there were a few platforms that felt like they had everybody together, hanging out in a single space. Now there are none. > I’d love to follow that up with, “and here’s the new thing coming next!” But I’m not sure there is one. There’s simply no place left on the internet that feels like a good, healthy, worthwhile place to hang out. It’s not just that there’s no sufficiently popular place; I actually think enough people are looking for a new home on the internet that engineering the network effects wouldn’t be that hard. It’s just that the platform doesn’t exist. It’s not LinkedIn or Tumblr, it’s not upstarts like Post or Vero or Spoutable or Hive Social. It’s definitely not Clubhouse or BeReal. It doesn’t exist. Long-term, I’m bullish on “fediverse” apps like Mastodon and Bluesky, because I absolutely believe in the possibility of the social web, a decentralized universe powered by ActivityPub and other open protocols that bring us together without forcing us to live inside some company’s business model. Done right, these tools can be the right mix of “everybody’s here” and “you’re still in control.” > But the fediverse isn’t ready. Not by a long shot. The growth that Mastodon has seen thanks to a Twitter exodus has only exposed how hard it is to join the platform, and more importantly how hard it is to find anyone and anything else once you’re there. Lemmy, the go-to decentralized Reddit alternative, has been around since 2019 but has some big gaps in its feature offering and its privacy policies — the platform is absolutely not ready for an influx of angry Redditors. Neither is Kbin, which doesn’t even have mobile apps and cautions new users that it is “very early beta” software. Flipboard and Mozilla and Tumblr are all working on interesting stuff in this space, but without much to show so far. The upcoming Threads app from Instagram should immediately be the biggest and most powerful thing in this space, but I’m not exactly confident in Meta’s long-term interest in building a better social platform.

Jul 4, 2023 at 3:31pmWeb
Show threadHairyblueJul 4, 2023

The fediverse can be tricky to sign up to and once you are there it is hard to find communities/interest to subscribe to. But I am learning how. And it is working for me. Another fediverse using gave me a webpage that helped me find more communities to join. Lemmy Explorer you can select the Home icon at the top to set your home federated server. Kbin.socal for me.

I even found a Baldur's Gate community and a Calvin and Hobbes community.

Lemmy Explorer

Instance and Community Explorer for Lemmy

Show threadxylanJul 4, 2023
Maybe it's different on Lemmy, but signing up to the fediverse via kbin couldn't have been easier. Pretty much the same as signing up for any other web site and the federated servers just show up automatically in the search. Once you're subscribed local and federated communities look pretty much identical.
Show threadBrookieBeeJul 4, 2023
All very true. Lemmy is the closest thing to a Reddit alternative that I’ve found so far. But the signup process was kinda hard, and the user experience of the apps (I’m using mlem now) needs work. It’s confusing and clunky.
Show threadVicious MeJul 4, 2023
Check out this new beautiful thing: lemmy.bolha.one/lemmy.world/
Show threadJeezyJul 4, 2023
This is exactly what I needed for the desktop!
Show threadreddwarfJul 4, 2023
Oh. Oh wow wow. Seems to work on different instances as well? This I tried for VLemmy.net :
lemmy.bolha.one/vlemmy.net/
vlemmy.net

Show threadVicious MeJul 4, 2023
Yes, it’s just a proxy over the actual Lemmy instances. Its great!
Show threadVicious MeJul 4, 2023

I also just discovered this other beauty wefwef.app

We are good folks! all bases covered

Voyager for Lemmy

Voyager is a beautiful mobile web client for Lemmy. Enjoy a seamless experience browsing the fediverse.

Show threadlwuy9v5Jul 5, 2023

I’m genuinely confused - I made my Lemmy account a few weeks ago but wasn’t the sign up just “email”, “password”, captcha, click email link, done? Isn’t that the exact sign up of reddit and most websites?

Sure - some instances have gated signups and require some questions / prompts - but a bunch don’t ?

Show threadBonzoJul 5, 2023
Just echoing what you said here. It’s incredibly simple. Some don’t even require an email.
Show threadBrookieBeeJul 4, 2023

All very true.

Lemmy is the closest thing to a Reddit alternative that I’ve found so far. But the signup process was kinda hard, and the user experience of the apps (I’m using mlem now) needs work. It’s confusing and clunky.

Even now, I’m getting errors trying to comment.

Show threadmyusernameisokayJul 4, 2023

I think the confusing sign up process and the clunky apps are going to scare a lot of people away. Additionally the nature of lemmy means you are more likely to have multiple fractured communities instead of just 1 central community per interest.

For example lemmy.ml, beehaw.org, lemmy.world all have their own communities for “technology.” If I want to subscribe to learn about technology updates do I need to subscribe to all of them? Do I just hope that the smaller ones shutdown and we’re only left with one?

Show threaditsAsinJul 4, 2023

if you compare all three of the technology communities, i think you will find that they are oddly similar… in fact, they are the same!

it is true that /c/technology has a home on a single instance. and it is also true that it takes time for all of the instances to sync up. but they are one and the same. that is the whole point of federating.

Show threadmyusernameisokayJul 4, 2023

Pretty sure this is not correct. Communities with the same name across different instances are separate. Here is a Reddit thread about this

Also I tried doing what you suggested. I went to lemmy.ml and lemmy.world and compared by top today, and none of the posts are the same. They are two different communities, just with the same name.

A bit confused with lemmy communities

reddit
Show threadelectronicoldmanJul 4, 2023
The author starts with the assumption that the for-profit social media apps suddenly turned it shit but has some sort of unique benefits that the fediverse lacks. Actually, the design of for-profit social media apps has ALWAYS led to shitty experiences, similar to how most email traffic is spam. The fact that the fediverse doesn’t replicate the experience of for-profit social media apps IS THE POINT and the author either missed it or is a shill.
Show threadcurryandbeansJul 4, 2023

I haven’t found Lemmy confusing to use at all. And I found that to be a big surprise. I expected more hurdles to have to jump to get started like Mastodon.

The one big issue so far has been the lag, upvotes not being sent, comments/communities not loading, etc. But the reasons for that are pretty understandable in my opinion.

Show threadZeth0sJul 4, 2023
I solved lag by changing instance, moving out of lemmy.world helps a lot
Show threadmo_ztt ✅Jul 4, 2023
Tell me you never experienced Usenet or the internet before Facebook and friends fucked it up, without telling me. We literally used to have all the things he’s talking about, with much less of the drawbacks, before the internet became commercialized. Now the commercial web’s unsuitability has finally reached the point of undeniability, and we’re trying to figure out how to get back to that.
Show threadDreamerOfImprobableDreamsJul 4, 2023

Yeah, and the author all but freely admits that. But they're apparently willing to throw all that away to have it "feel like everyone’s there." Which to me is a horrifying prospect, that kind of scale means your individual voice will inevitably be drowned out, and your odds of making any genuine social connections are zilch.

But apparently that's all worth it to feel like you're sitting at the cool kids' table.

Show threadmagnetosphereJul 4, 2023
I don’t think you’re being uncharitable. The author sounds like they can’t cope with anything that isn’t slick, polished, and already popular. Frankly, Lemmy doesn’t need people who can’t deal with growing pains.
Show threadEnglishMobsterJul 5, 2023

I think they mostly just want to be able to have parasocial relationships with celebrities and influencers. Arnold Schwarzenegger would give advice occasionally on the bodybuilding subreddit, IIRC. Having your favorite YouTuber dip into the comments section for a quick moment just to say a thing or two was something Reddit/Twitter had that was really cool.

The fediverse kind of has that. Shout-out to Technology Connections, who is on Mastodon - @TechConnectify - as well as Not Just Bikes, who is @notjustbikes on Mastodon but is considering moving to Bluesky. (If you're on Kbin, you can follow them from Kbin at https://kbin.social/u/@[email protected] and https://kbin.social/u/@[email protected] respectively.) But most influencers aren't on the fediverse, outside of huge nerds.

The issue is that until we have a Reddit-like service which has a plurality of Reddit users and a Twitter-like service that has a plurality of Twitter users we're going to be in this weird state. Both Reddit and Twitter still exist. They still have people who make posts there. Some celebrities still post there. While Twitter is finally collapsing due to its dumb rate limiting, Reddit has enough bots to maintain the illusion of being an active community, and plenty of Google SEO to get new users to move there. It's obvious that - while splintered - both those places aren't going to magically disappear.

Then we have Bluesky (which I predict will be a monster once it comes out of invite-only mode, if only because it's built up so much hype) and Threads. Both are targeting Twitter specifically, and I predict that one will win. Jimmy Wales (of Wikipedia) is also working on his own Twitter clone, which may be a dark horse in the race as well.

I'm not confident that the fediverse will "win" on the Twitter clone side. While I expect that Threads will get a lot of "normal" people on it who use Instagram, a lot of the fediverse is cutting Threads off ASAP to try and prevent "embrace, extend, extinguish" from leeching people from Mastodon into Threads. Bluesky seems to be a frat house at the moment (from what I've heard) but it may self-regulate. It's already seen a recent spike due to Twitter's rate limiting.

My prediction is in 2-3 years we will be back in the same game we were playing before, but with new players.

Overview - TechConnectify - kbin.social

Explore Fediverse

Show threadportablejimJul 5, 2023

Then we have Bluesky (which I predict will be a monster once it comes out of invite-only mode, if only because it’s built up so much hype) and Threads. Both are targeting Twitter specifically,

I think there is decent evidence that Bluesky is not competing with Twitter. See …medium.com/no-elon-and-jack-are-not-competitors-…

No, Elon and Jack are not “competitors.” They’re collaborating.

Wherein I attempt to clarify a number of ridiculous and false narratives currently taking hold about Musk and Dorsey’s “rivalry.”

Medium
Show threadEnglishMobsterJul 5, 2023

Eh, as much as I'd like to believe that article it sounds a bit far-fetched. "Using Putin's nukes to force the issue..." of the information space? Of Twitter? Elon controls one social media site; one that's bleeding users at that. How on earth is the issue going to be forced with nukes? Is Putin going to say "Everyone join Twitter/Bluesky/this new Twitter-like protocol or else?" Bear in mind that Putin is in an increasingly weak position himself; while the author wouldn't have really been able to say that in 2022 now it's obvious that Putin can barely control Russia, let alone the rest of the world.

Like, I can be onboard with the thought that Bluesky is workshopping protocols that Twitter may one day adopt. That's fine. The article mentions that Bluesky originated at Twitter... but didn't mention that Bluesky is now fundamentally separate from Twitter, and has been. They make it seem like Twitter still has a controlling interest when that isn't the case.

Do I believe Jack and Elon and friends? Yeah, I can buy that. Do I think they're both in some weird Mars cult? Yeah, I can buy that too. But everything beyond that seems like a crazy conspiracy theory, and none of the "questions/answers" that article has really sells me on the idea that this is some doomsday plan to destroy governments.

Bluesky buzz: Why the social media platform is being called the next Twitter

Why some major politicians and celebrities are turning away from Elon Musk-owned Twitter and toward Bluesky, a social platform started by Jack Dorsey.

NBC News
Show threadportablejimJul 5, 2023

Eh, as much as I’d like to believe that article it sounds a bit far-fetched. “Using Putin’s nukes to force the issue…” of the information space?

I think what is meant is the idea of that because of Putin’s nukes we should capitulate to Russia and stop sending Ukraine money. This idea (and the idea of the power of bitcoin) is spread by RFK Jr, who Jack endorses in the US Presidential race.

Show threadDreamerOfImprobableDreamsJul 5, 2023

Honestly, that's kind of even sadder, IMO.

(Especially when you consider most of those celebrities weren't running their own accounts, they were handled by PR teams, so you weren't actually interacting with them, either. But even if they had been-- like, guys, go make IRL friends. I know it's agonizingly hard, I struggle with it too, but this shit ain't healthy.)

Show threadillahJul 4, 2023

But you gotta admit Usenet was super niche and was never ever on its way to becoming a thing usable by people from all walks of life. This is why AOL became a thing…and folks like us similarly criticized it as a commercial walled garden!

While that was true about AOL and also true about the web today, going back to clunky services only techies can use isn’t the answer, and the current state of the fediverse is pretty clunky. But I have high hopes for how this space will evolve.

Show threadzos_kiaJul 4, 2023
What do you mean? Usenet was insanely popular back in the day, and not reserved to techies at all. All you needed was an email client, it was way easier than the fediverse, and a million times more polished.
Show threadillahJul 4, 2023
Most of my family have to this day never even heard of Usenet, but they all have Instagram and Facebook accounts. The scale of Usenet “popularity” isn’t even remotely in the ballpark of the modern social web/apps. There are more people on meta apps than people who even had access to the internet when Usenet was relevant.
Show threadzos_kiaJul 5, 2023

I don’t understand. Of course your normie family hasn’t heard of the big social app of 30 years ago, how is that even relevant ?

The scale of Usenet popularity was enormous for the time, roughly 15% of internet users were on usenet. In terms of today’s internet population that would be around 800M. That’s not niche, and that’s definitely in the ballpark of modern social media (double the size of reddit). There were a million different groups on a million different subjects, it was not for techies only you had active groups about gardening, ancient greek philosophy, writing, etc…

But most of all it was not clunky or difficult to use. The reason AOL “won” is because they shipped a quadrillion of those CD-Roms with free internet hours around the world, prompting people to try the internet out and those new users could discover chatrooms in one click. I’ll agree with you that the fediverse in its current state is clunky but usenet back in the day was far from it. It had fewer functionalities but was very straightforward to use.

Show threadtalJul 5, 2023
Spam was a serious issue for Usenet.
Show threadDreamerOfImprobableDreamsJul 4, 2023

As far as how humans connect to one another, what’s next appears to be group chats and private messaging and forums, returning back to a time when we mostly just talked to the people we know. Maybe that’s a better, less problematic way to live life. Maybe feed and algorithms and the “global town square” were a bad idea.

I know the author goes on to argue against this, but I agree with it completely. The "global town square" didn't just lead to IRL discourse becoming just as toxic as the worst internet cesspools, with devastating real-world consequences. It also killed what made the internet special.

The author talks about having to explore the web to find the content you want, stumbling on niche communities you'd never have heard of along the way, as if it's somehow a bad thing. To me, it was what made the internet so much fun. And it's one of the things I've most desperately missed in the era of big, centralized social media.

Show threadDreamerOfImprobableDreamsJul 4, 2023
Gotta wonder how Ernest feels, having kbin go from his niche side project to being name-checked in The Verge (even if it's in the context of pointing out it's not ready for prime time) in the space of like two weeks.
Show threadmagnetosphereJul 4, 2023

Why do these articles always mention how hard it is to join Mastodon? It’s not. Creating an account takes less than a minute.

Granted, I don’t understand how the fediverse works, but I hadn’t even heard the word “fediverse” when I made my account.

Show threadyool_oolooJul 4, 2023

I have the IQ of a seedless grape, and I managed to sign up for both Lemmy and kbin.

I don't want a duplicate of Reddit here. Sure, I hope the niche/hyper-local subreddits will create communities here, but this feels new, fresh, full of opportunity. Growing pains are a good sign and temporary. I really like that karma is gone (kbin does have the boost).

Show threadThulJul 4, 2023
I’ve been going outside, the library, and engaging with my kids. Lemmy and Discord do scratch a social itch but they aren’t the time sink reddit and Twitter were
Show threadPhantom_EngineerJul 5, 2023
Ah yes, this outside I’ve heard so much about
Show threadBonzoJul 5, 2023
There’s even grass to touch!
Show threadresetrebootJul 5, 2023

They took so long to see how companies have been turning Internet to a place of communication and sharing into a cable TV with comment section. And to be honest, after seeing what happens when you put everyone in the same place, at the same time, with the same tools, I think I prefer there’s some effort to be taken to join a community, and keep those communities small. Makes trolling harder, if you have to take your time to join a community, you aren’t going to burn your account so easily. Moderation is way easier if the community is small (there’s absolute horror stories and sh*tshows about this in the social media companies) and yes… I’d rather have a place that is run by volunteers and the community itself, lest we have another Spez telling us what we can or we can’t do with our community.

I don’t know, I’ve never given a f⁺ck about talking with a celebrity (and when you “could” it was an illusion most of the time, community managers are a thing, you know, and in 20.000 messages, yours not gonna stand out, my sweet summer child) and the company run Internet lately sounds more and more like a giant ad gallery, where everyone wants to sell you something and maybe, you get something worth paying attention to.

And of course, The Verge isn’t going to give the Fediverse a good bump and a wink, no, they are going to bash it because for them, it is better that another company takes on the place Twitter, Reddit and the rest is leaving now… the other option is Communism, Satan or something!

Show threadGustavoMJul 5, 2023
Things change over time – nothing lasts forever. Something something improvise, adapt, overcome.