IninewCrowWho owns the Fediverse? I mean who owns and runs the hardware that runs this system?
WoofcatIt's just a protocol between servers. So no one? Who owns "English"?
Each instance can elect to federate or not federate with others.
So the question just goes down one level .... who owns the instance? It's an important question as it then determines what influence can occur with any instance or any owner or owners of an instance.
Yes, no one can own the English language but the language can only occur because each and everyone of us own the hardware because the hardware is built into our bodies.
A fediverse instance has to be run from some location and by some hardware ... so the question I still wonder about is ... who owns any one instance ... who owns or controls Lemmy.world? who owns and controls lemmy.ca
Anyone can run one. Why not run one yourself for $20/month?
Which leads to the question ... what if the owner no longer has any money to pay $20 / month ... what if his instance grows popular and now he has to pay $40/month $100/month $500/month ... I can appreciate the goodwill of people but whenever anyone puts lots of energy into any activity, eventually it costs money, time and effort ... all of which does not come for free and usually comes with a price
Boris MannThese are all good questions and lead you to explore more about what it means to run software.
So as well as the instance (domain name / hardware server) admins, there are also the open source developers of the Lemmy software. They keep things updated and put out new features and releases. They currently have a (partial) grant from some European agencies who are making sure that open source software isn't all built and owned by American corporations.
It would be good for every instance to allocate some funding to the open source software they rely on.
I'm one of the people responsible for (currently a test Lemmy instance) news.cosocial.ca. Our main service today is our Mastodon server (cosocial.ca). We are a registered member-owned Canadian cooperative. Every member has paid at least $50 per year. We currently have volunteer moderators and server admins, our goal is to eventually pay those roles. More on our blog.
We're also here to be a resource to anyone running services in Canada, especially if you need legal or other help. /me waves at smorks
Back to keeping things running: the Lemmy software needs a bunch more features to scale. The moderation tools are very basic, there are a couple of mobile apps in development that are very early on. We should think about pooling funds and donating.
It's great to see Lemmy.ca on OpenCollective (we use it for Cosocial too). I've just donated as a $5 monthly backer. Thanks for setting this up!
Everybody is different, but I'd suggest subscribing as a backer or just tossing in a one time donation to start to support @[email protected] and Lemmy.ca.
da_gThe sistem is run by a miriad of different servers that are own each by its community, you would have to research more deeply the specific server you want to know the owner of
That's one of the important questions that concerned me ... who owns the instance I am on. I can appreciate that these systems are all independent of one another and the whole is not controlled by anyone entity or person. But I would like to know who the owner of the instance I am on.
Maybe that should be an important feature to share with everyone up front when you subscribe or sign on to any instance ... a description of who the owners and controllers of the instance are ... who are they, are they just one person? a group? who are they? where are they from?
I understand we have to be private on the internet but if you want to promote being an open and shared universe of users ... one of the most important pieces of information for me is in knowing who pays to run the service I am using for free.
On the flip side of that ... if I know who the owners of the instance are .. and I like them .. then I would be more than willing to send donations or a subscription to help them pay for the services I use.
harmoneaI see this at the bottom of the sidebar of your instance. Was there something else you were looking for other than what's there, or... did you not see that there?
UnblendedIn your case, lemmy.ca says this about the instance you are on.
Lemmy.ca
A canadian-run community, geared towards canadians, but all are welcome!
Welcome to Lemmy.ca!
“Lemmy.ca” is so named due to it running the Lemmy software, in the Fediverse, and it’s geared toward Canadians, hosted in Canada, and run by a Canadian. It is, however, not at all restricted to Canadians, or Canadian culture/topics/etc. All are welcome!
We have some rules here:
No bigotry - including racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, or xenophobia.
Be respectful. Everyone should feel welcome here.
No porn.
No Ads / Spamming.
That gives a fair amount of information about what is and is not acceptable on that particular instance. Looking at your local communities only should tell you a lot about the general character of the group, I don't use Lemmy (this is from kbin, hi) but it seems like your UI has multiple buttons to show all/subscribed/local feeds, so switch it to local and see if it pisses you off.
Telling who owns it is harder, I think that's often somewhat obscured for dox/harassment reasons. However, in this case the website shows at the bottom of the right-side column who the admins are:
And now I see that @smorks noticed your post and hopefully that will clear things up ;-) Hopefully they don't mind being doxxxxxxed.
I get that people need their privacy ... I don't need to know the intimate details of a person's life in order to get a sense of who they are
My biggest concerns are towards money .... how they make it, how they spent it, what are their costs and are they making or losing money?
Everyone keeps saying just run your own instance ... great .. that could work for a very small group of people but it would still take plenty of energy, time and money to maintain that little instance among friends .... imagine what the costs end up becoming if you run an instance very well and gain lots of popularity? The costs quickly add up.
Then the concern becomes, how does the instance owner pay for all this? And will they continue to run a loss or did they gain a way to generate profit? or most worryingly will they ever try to monetize their instance and sell it to the highest bidder?
You can run your own instance and not allow anyone else to sign up, though I do agree the effort it requires if it's just for a single person is a lot. Spread out amongst friends, or other folks who don't mind chipping in, makes it seem a bit more sensible. But there is always the option to turn off registrations, and on Lemmy at least you can make registrations require approval.
The only other way your instance could incur more running costs than you'd like is if you have a community on your instance that gets very popular, and folks from all instances start posting to it (think stuff on Beehaw, Lemmy.world, etc.) Then your server needs to be the man in the middle, facilitating communication between users of other communities. But you always have the option of not allowing communities to be created, or stopping federation altogether if it gets to be too much. There really isn't a way it would suddenly cost you more money than you thought, unless you aren't monitoring it enough (which isn't much more than setting up notification emails for storage use, system crashes, etc).
Running your own instance is the only way to really be sure that the costs are being covered on the up-and-up. Otherwise you're just taking folks at their word. Your data, in the end, could always be sold to anyone. It is publically available through the ActivityPub protocol, after all. But that also means there's really no need to pay for it, so no one would buy it.
The best way to know who owns the service you use it to own it yourself. That does come with a lot of overhead, though. I started my own kbin instance because I, like you, was worried about "what if one day I go to login and my home instance decided to shut off forever?" That can't happen now, besides if I forget to pay/something goes wrong with the server. But I enjoy tinkering so it works out in my case.
I think ultimately users are responsible for which instance they choose to sign up for. If there isn't much transparency on a certain instance, it may not be the one for you. I agree that the sign up pages could have some areas where more information could be shared. Of course, it is up to each instance admin to share accurate and factual information as to who they are/where the money comes from/goes etc.
mochiThe software is open source. No one owns it.
Different instances are run by different people of varying political backgrounds.
Mastodon leans left mostly. Pleroma leans right mostly. Lemmy leans left and even has or had hard coded censorship baked into their software. Misskey is Japanese language mostly, or populated by weebs of all flavors.
Your experience will definitely depend on who’s running the server but the overall integrated platform can’t be shut down by any one person or group. You can always change servers or platforms and reconnect with people.
HubertManneits a cabal made up of the communists, GE, the catholic church, Saudi Aramco, and the royal family.
I feel like people are missing the question that is really being asked here.
The way I read the question is "How are the individual federated servers able to interact?"
I mean, there has to be some sort of system somewhere that helps the servers connect to each other. How does Lemmy.ca know that Lemmy.world exists? There must be some sort of authority that knows. There must be some sort of first step when a new instance appears that lets everyone know that the new server exists.
Unless it's like routers and routing tables but that only works because of the physical structure allowing it, a federated server isn't going to reach out to its nearest neighbor and see another federated server. When you start a new server, do you have to like... pick an existing federated server to... like... knock on the door of? Give them a pie and tell them that you're in the neighborhood now?
I don't know the answer to this question... But I like the pie idea.
Your knock on the door analogy is exactly right--when I started my instance, I had to search every community that I wanted to see directly by URL. Then my server would send a message to that community's server saying that I subscribed to that community. Now, every time a post is made at that community, it's server sends my server an update. If I post a comment to a community on lemmy.ca (like I am now), from my kbin instance (remy.city), and you are reading it from kbin.social, that means my server first saved my comment locally, then sent it to lemmy.ca, and lemmy.ca sent it to your kbin.social because you subscribed to the community. So in that case, lemmy.ca is the 'authority', and is responsible for sending updates out to subscribed parties.
There is no such thing for instances--each new instance has to manually make a connection to another (i.e. a user on the new instance must subscribe to something from another instance). I think the tools like fediverse.observer are reading comments or other activity from popular instances, and are then compiling a list of the instances they find by doing that. But there is no central server/authority that makes communication between instances possible. Each instance has to talk to each other instance for it to happen. It's a bit inefficient but is necessary for decentralized communication.
I mean, there has to be some sort of system somewhere that helps the servers connect to each other. How does Lemmy.ca know that Lemmy.world exists? There must be some sort of authority that knows. There must be some sort of first step when a new instance appears that lets everyone know that the new server exists.
There literally isn't. New servers do not automatically federate with each other. Someone on the new server needs to manually start following users or groups on existing servers just to to establish any kind of connection. And even then, people on the existing server won't know that any users or groups exist on the new one.
It takes conscious effort by users to create connections and start content flowing between fediverse websites. There's no central authority of any kind. If someone doesn't make those connections, a fediverse website is functionally a stand-alone social media website.
I have a personal Lemmy instance, and a personal Calckey instance. Still debating on creating a personal PixelFed instance, and maybe even a public kbin instance.
Anyone who wants to host a fediverse website owns the fediverse. It belongs to any of us and all of us.
mabdOut of curiosity, what do you mean by personal instance? Only you use it? I'm wondering what reasons someone would have a personal instance. Or maybe like a group for friends only?
My Lemmy instance acts as a private forum for people I've met through a local recreational sports league. I use it to remind people of games and social events.
My Calckey server is just me. I set it up because I wanted to know how to do it, and now I'm my own admin and moderator. It's a good time.
If you look in the aftermath of the Beehaw defederation, you'll see a bunch of people whining about "rogue admins". One option for those folks is to just be their own.
bdonvrWell the main developers of lemmy and admins of lemmy.ml are communists, if I recall correctly.
But there are already far-right instances.
The answer basically boils down to “Nobody, however it is important to know who runs the largest instances, as they will wield a fair amount of influence”
It doesn’t matter who the devs are because the code is open source. The beauty of the fediverse is that nobody controls it.
Open source just means that they’re not doing stuff behind your back that you’re not unaware of like collecting your data. I don’t think that means that the mods of a specific instance can’t arbitrarily ban users or delete comments and fuck with communities within their instance.
Open Source means I can take the code and deploy my own instance without permission from anyone.
If you can figure it out. Lemmy at this point is probably still straightforward, but for example go try to compile Android. Just compile it. Last time I tried was 2018, but I spent two full days trying before I gave up. And Android is open source.
There are ways to obscure and gate the codebase even if it is open source.
That’s true, I’m just not sure how it’s applicable to the current conversation? I don’t think anyone is making the argument that open source projects are easy?