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Ukraine war: Kyiv claims first victories of counter-offensive - BBC News

https://lemmy.world/post/70749

Ukraine war: Kyiv claims first victories of counter-offensive - BBC News - Lemmy.world

- Ukraine says it has liberated four villages in the south-east, calling these the first settlements won back from Russia since Kyiv’s counter-offensive began - On Monday morning, officials reported that “the national flag is once again waving” over Storozhove, in the Donetsk region - A day earlier, footage showed Ukrainian troops celebrating in Blahodatne and Neskuchne - and a minister said nearby Makarivka was also taken - The settlements are relatively small - and Moscow is yet to confirm any retreat - The Institute for the Study of War backs up Kyiv’s claims, saying Ukraine captured “multiple settlements” along the frontline over the weekend - On Saturday, President Zelensky acknowledged that the long-awaited counter-offensive was under way

Jun 12, 2023 at 8:03amWeb
Show threaddethleffsJun 12, 2023
Slava Ukraïni!
Show threadDarkwingDuckJun 12, 2023
Quit reddit behavior please. This adds nothing and is not at all useful.
Show threaddethleffsJun 12, 2023
I'm just expressing my hope they will succeed and liberate many more villages and cities, in the most succint way possible. And they will succeed.
Show threadCount042Jun 13, 2023
You just said 'glory to the heroes'. Which heroes are you wishing glory to? Cause that saying has a history that you are apparently unaware of.
Show threadYellowtoOrangeJun 13, 2023
The ones right now (not 70 years ago) defending their country from imperialists who are shelling civilians, kidnapping children, castrating soldiers, raping women. You know, the russians. Have you been keeping up?
Show threadCount042Jun 13, 2023

Frankly, if the Germans were invaded, it wouldn't excuse starting to use a phrase the traditional Nazi's used, even if the people invading were monsters. In the same way that the swastika is an appropriated symbol, but no longer represents that because something came along that carries far more ... historical weight, shall we say.

If someone invaded the South of the US, I would not be okay with The US starting to use wildly well known confederate slogans.

Also, you just said the Russians are the heroes you were referencing that were defending their country from imperialists who are doing all that bad stuff. I know that isn't what you meant, but that is what you said. Might be worth an edit, if you care.

Show threadYellowtoOrangeJun 13, 2023

undefined> Also, you just said the Russians are the heroes you were referencing that were defending their country from imperialists who are doing all that bad stuff. I know that isn’t what you meant, but that is what you said. Might be worth an edit, if you care.

Ah, yes, I meant the russians are doing the evil things.

Show threadCount042Jun 13, 2023
Unrelated: When you quote me, are intentionally typing undefined? Or is that a weird Lemmy bug?
Show thread133arc585Jun 13, 2023
If you press some of the buttons below the comment editing box, like the Quote or Insert Link button, if the comment box is empty it prepends 'undefined'. Seems like a javascript bug, not handling the case where the box is empty properly.
Show threadCount042Jun 13, 2023
Thanks!
Show threadCriticalResist8Jun 13, 2023
Totally agree bro we must secure the existence of our people amirite?
Show threadBloopsJun 13, 2023

Funnily enough, the Ukrainian constitution does have a line in there like that, although thankfully it has to do with radiation and not... you know.

Providing ecological safety and maintenance of ecological equilibrium in the territory of Ukraine, overcoming consequences of the Chernobyl catastrophic crash - catastrophic crashes of planetary scale, preserving gene pool of the Ukrainian people are obligation of the state.

Show threadCriticalResist8Jun 13, 2023
I don't know, the gene pool comment is weird. Do they think Chernobyl is going to give them superpowers, or are they Banderites?
Show threadBloopsJun 13, 2023
Not really sure what the discussions were like when it was put in. But it was before the 2014 coup.
Show threadCriticalResist8Jun 13, 2023
Banderite slogan. https://www.dw.com/en/new-glory-to-ukraine-army-chant-invokes-nationalist-past/a-45215538
Show threadBombOmOmJun 13, 2023
How dare someone be proud of their country?!
Show threadCriticalResist8Jun 13, 2023
Yeah whatever, it's still a banderite slogan lmao
Show threadBlurstyJun 14, 2023
Yes, that's why the Ukronazis were killing them and trying to ethnically cleanse them for over 8 years.
Show threadChupJun 12, 2023

I understand this is a positive news in the first week of the counter offensive, but to me - it makes me feel depressed.

It makes me look at the size of Ukraine and the occupied areas. There are thousands or probably ten thousands of occupied settlements and villages. Reporting 5 of e.g. 18.000 liberated... it is positive, it is a news, it makes me depressed looking at the scaled of what lies ahead in this war to get Russia out of Ukraine.

The thing I am hoping for and expecting, that this is not a continuous speed. In the past, we have seen Russian lines disintegrate, troops flee in civilian clothing and the front lines moved tens of kilometers within a single day.

Show threadYellowtoOrangeJun 12, 2023
Hopefully russia crumbles from within. They are doing everything possible to show that this is a battle between "good" and "evil" - the destructin of cities, kidnapping children, rape, castration, civilian deaths from distance and in person.
Show threadCount042Jun 13, 2023

This will not happen. The reason that you think that is due to the fact that this is the most propagandized wars I've ever seen from personal experience. That heavy amount of propaganda is flowing both ways.

Basically, everything you just described is the natural consequence of war. That's not excusing the Russians, but acknowledging that there are always examples of everything on that list on both sides in basically any war. It doesn't matter if one side causes much more of those things than the other side when it comes to propaganda. All that matters is that both sides have done it. Then, the Russians use that to make their own propaganda. Which they've done. The Russian population honestly also believes that this is a war of good vs evil. To be clear, I'm not saying that it is, just that the Russian population, fed Russian propaganda, believe in this war.

The end result of all of the above words is that the unrest in Russia at this point is due to Russians being unhappy that Putin isn't more aggressive. If Putin is replaced in a coup, the person that replaced him will be more aggressive against Ukraine, not less.

Show threadYellowtoOrangeJun 13, 2023

undefined> Basically, everything you just described is the natural consequence of war. That’s not excusing the Russians, but acknowledging that there are always examples of everything on that list on both sides in basically any war. I

Except the Ukrainians aren't intentionally striking civilians, raping, killing soldiers who have surrendered, castrating soldiers - we would have heard about it from the russians (though anything they release has to be treated with suspicion).

The russians appear to want to be labelled as "evil".

And so they will be, except by russian sympathizers, whether they admit it or not.

Show threadCount042Jun 13, 2023

The Ukrainians have explicitly struck civilians. They've accepted responsibility for some of them and lied about some of the others where the US's intelligence agencies believe that it was the Ukrainians. Fuck, in the recent discord leaks, we discovered that our security agencies don't even know what the truth is with Ukraine because we don't really have intelligence assets with the Ukrainian side, and we know that the Ukrainian lie to us about a lot.

Who used an unwilling suicide bomb to take out a strategic bridge? Who attacked a NATO countries infrastructure in an act of war? Who used a car bomb against a Russian, I don't know, unpopular political figures daughter? The car bomb intentionally killed civilians, and did so intentionally in a civilian area. Dugin is, within Russia, right now, effectively only a pro-war blogger. He doesn't have political power. He also doesn't even have the ear of powerful people, really. But killing him(who was the likely target), a civilian, was apparently worthwhile for the Ukrainians. He and his daughter were civilians.

For the other stuff, the Russians absolutely are saying that that is happening. I agree with you that those claims, coming from the Russians, do need to be treated with skepticism. But you are wrong that the Russians aren't claiming the Ukrainians are doing those things. They absolutely are. The fact that you don't think they are making those claims makes me wonder where you are getting your information from.

So, the worst crime the Russians committed was starting the war. All of their other crimes follow from that first crime. Without it, none of the others would have happened. That is because war itself is evil. It makes good people do horrible things. Don't even think about what it makes bad people do. Every side in every war, has done, and will do what you are saying the Ukrainians haven't done. They have. I'm not saying it is official policy, but that probably isn't true, even for the Russians.

The Russians don't want to be labelled evil. Do you really think that? NO ONE THINKS THEY ARE EVIL. HITLER didn't think he was evil. No. The Russians don't think they are evil, and they don't want other people to think that either. Saying that doesn't require any knowledge about this war, just knowledge about human nature. You want to think they're evil? That is entirely fair. But if you actually believe they think they're evil, that is just stupid.

To be clear, I'm not a Russian sympathizer. As said above, the Russians committed the largest crime possible by invading. Everything else came about because of that. I am a war nerd. It is something I find interesting. Part of the problem with the fucking propaganda for this war is that it makes actually finding out what is happening the most difficult to follow of all of the wars in my lifetime. It also leads to just stupid fucking opinions, like if someone says the Ukrainian offensive is going poorly means that that person is a Russian Sympathizer. Being morally right doesn't mean that everything you do is effective.

Show threadgigachadJun 12, 2023
I think it's what you said, it is not continuous speed. The offensive may slow down, may accelerate - let's be honest, there is even the chance of failure. However, looking at the last 6-9 months, we should be optimistic. The recapture of a small village may not seem impactful, for people who were born there, lived there until the war or even still live there under Russian oppression - it means the world for them.
Show threadRinoxJun 13, 2023

Ukraine will need to push through the first and second lines of defense, where the Russians are extremely dug in. Once they breech those fortifications it should become like driving a scalpel through Russian defenses.

If they manage to go through the first lines of defense, they'll operationally encircle a lot of Russian positions on the west, either prompting the Russian forces to retreat or get trapped in the pocket.

TL;DR this is the hard part

Show threadSimsJun 12, 2023
Ukraine doesn't really win anything. This is the third Army they are wasting. Too bad for the Ukrainian conscripts.
Show threadSimsJun 12, 2023
Ukraine doesn’t really win anything. This is the third Army they are wasting. Too bad for the Ukrainian conscripts.
Show threadTheOublietteJun 13, 2023
An area amounting to about 6 km by 6 km. Still an excuse for cheerleading and manufacturing consent for escalation. One of the villages is like 6 houses.
Show threadKempethJun 13, 2023
It's funny how with certain folks its always the fighting back that's the escalation, never the original aggression...
Show threadgnuhautJun 13, 2023
Oh yeah the original aggression. Which one?
Show threadzalackJun 13, 2023
Your head is so far up your own propaganda I can't even tell where you're trying to say here.
Show threadgnuhautJun 13, 2023
Western liberals keep ignoring anything before 2022 in order to create a black-and-white narrative. This leads them to the conclusion that they're fighting absolute evil and so any means are justified no matter how many people will die, and how dangerous and even counter-productive their actions.
Show threadqueryJun 13, 2023
Before 2022, like Russia didn't invade in 2014.
Show threadKempethJun 13, 2023

Nah. I don't see Russia as absolute evil. And there are plenty of means the west does not consider justified. Nobody I know falls into either of these categories.

I don't want Ukraine to kill poor Russian sods but as long as Russia kills poor Ukrainian sods I think it's only fair if they get to shoot back.

Most of us just want Russia to go home and let Ukraine be Ukraine.

Show threadgnuhautJun 13, 2023
This is such a simplistic view of the war. The civil war started because the country already had internal fault lines, and was pulled in different directions by Russian and Western meddling until it broke. The invasion was just the latest in a series of escalations. Nothing about this war is in the interest of the people living on the battlefield, they got duped or forced into fighting each other. Encouraging them to fight on is messed up.
Show threadProtegee9850Jun 14, 2023
This is so bizarre to believe considering Putin has been very clear and vocal about his interest in annexing Ukraine since he came to power.
Show threadBunkerBusterKeatonJun 13, 2023

never the original aggression…

Ah the Maidan Coup, ya the Ukrainians shouldn't have done that, you're right

Show threadFaceDeerJun 13, 2023
How dare the people rise up against their rightfully-installed rulers and decide they want someone else.
Show threadCount042Jun 13, 2023
Yanukovich, while definitely corrupt, won in a fair democratic election that was judged free and fair by international observers.. The coup overthrew a democratically elected leader. He was not appointed by anyone.
Show threadzalackJun 13, 2023

I guarantee you it means something to the residents of those six houses.

It's easy to lose track of individual humanity at the scale of a war, but this victory is the one these people will always most remember when they think of the tide turning. Their lives are worth something.

Show threadDerPapa69Jun 13, 2023

Doesn't change the fact the the suMmEr OfFensIVe is going horribly lol

Real life is not like the movies

Show threadloopsJun 13, 2023
I'm pretty sure these people support Russia lol.
Show threadFlinchJun 13, 2023
Today our troops captured a two-room apartment with kitchen, toilet, and bathroom. They have succeeded in retaining two-thirds of it despite fierce counterattacks by the enemy.
Show threadloopsJun 13, 2023
Cope harder, orc.
Show threadloopsJun 13, 2023

ITT: Russian sympathisers coping

It's good news; though, nothing spectacular like the earlier offensive. It's to be expected though, the muscovites have had time to build up those defences.

Show threadRogue_GeneralJun 13, 2023

Likewise, reinforcements from Reddit will hopefully drown out imperialist sympathizers despite the time they've had to erect defenses here.

Yes, my Russian-sympathizing friends. You can certainly classify the actions of Russia and China as imperialist & bad too, and it will not detract from the imperialist & bad stuff the US or "the West" has done. Most humans can walk and chew gum at the same time, you can too!

Show threadBlurstyJun 13, 2023

Muh both sides!

What do you understand the word "Imperialist" to mean?

Show threadpingvenoJun 13, 2023

Wikipedia's first paragraph is:

Imperialism is the practice, theory or attitude of maintaining or extending power over foreign nations, particularly through expansionism, employing not only hard power (economic and military power), but also soft power (cultural and diplomatic power). Imperialism focuses on establishing or maintaining hegemony and a more or less formal empire.

Russia (and the Soviet Union) has had multiple rounds of imperialism throughout its history. Slicing bits off Ukraine and its continued occupation of parts of Georgia in the modern era certain counts as expansionism. It also exercises cultural power by using state controlled Russian-language media to influence both domestic and foreign populations.

Show threadRogue_GeneralJun 13, 2023
Thanks for that, I was too lazy to respond to him
Show thread🔻Sleepless One🔻Jun 15, 2023
Show threadCount042Jun 13, 2023

It's shit like this that makes this one of the hardest wars to follow. Before that, it was Syria.

The Russian commanders, who were wrong to invade, have learned a lot since the initial invasion. It's the same reason that Assads army was much better after they lost a lot of their soldiers. When you have a lot of your army die, on average, the ones remaining are the ones who managed to stay alive who, again on average, are now much more experienced combat troops.

The Russians did exactly what Ukraine did during the Russian offensive. They pulled back behind their minefields, and then used artillery to drop more mines on the assaulting force that was in the process of clearing mines. This was the same tactic that the Ukrainians used to great success that caused a bunch of Russian tanks to be blown up in columns in Vulhedar.

Remember, good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people. If the basis of your view of why you think a given side is losing is because you don't like them, then you aren't actually interested in the war. Just in cheerleading your team.

Honestly, I can't understand the strategic goal of how the Ukrainians are running this particular offensive. It truly seems to be to spend as much Ukrainian blood to secure western financial and logistical support. Not to actually gain territory they can hold. At least, that's my best guess with articles like this in the American media: Politico

White House anxiously watches Ukraine’s counteroffensive, seeing the war and Biden’s reputation at stake

With the debt ceiling done, attention turns to the challenges piling up internationally.

POLITICO
Show threadBlurstyJun 13, 2023
The "Muscovites"?
Show threadFaceDeerJun 13, 2023
Russians, without any double meanings that Russian sympathizers could jump in and say "aha, racists!" or "aha, russophobes!" over.
Show threadCount042Jun 13, 2023

The two places in Russia that aren't pro-Ukrainian war, are Moscow and St Petersburg.

Putins powerbase is sort of the equivalent to Trump or Erdogan. The people in the larger cities don't like him, but the rural areas love him.

Show threadBunkerBusterKeatonJun 13, 2023
you know it's possible to 'dislike' Russia and at the same time know that they will completely overpower Ukraine, right? you're letting your hatred for Russia blind your understanding of military power and strategy
Show threadFaceDeerJun 13, 2023
Anyone that "knows" they will completely overpower Ukraine apparently stopped paying attention to reality many years ago. They've been proven to be incapable of it.
Show threadpsychothumbsJun 13, 2023
Yeah the correlation I see is that people who are paying really close attention to the war are most optimistic about Ukraine's chances, relative to the not paying much attention mainstream and the delusional cohort who are getting their news updates from Russian sources.
Show threadBunkerBusterKeatonJun 13, 2023

oh cool, i've found the military understander. so what is Ukraine's strategy here? What does victory look like for them?

In weapons, ammunition, and soldiers Russia outnumbers the AFU, as assessed by any reasonable expert. Russia sees this as a special military operation, not a war. They are comfortable being conservative with their resources and not committing too many at once (which is what they've done so far). Even with this restraint, they are killing Ukrainian soldiers at a higher rate than Russian soldiers are dying. Russia has an army, including reserves, of around 2million soldiers.

Look I hate seeing young men sent into a meat thresher because they are serving the interests of NATO and capitalist interests. I wish the AFU had the courage to not waste the lives of their soldiers and come to the negotiating table so that no more lives are senselessly wasted

Show threadFaceDeerJun 13, 2023

I wish the AFU had the courage to not waste the lives of their soldiers and come to the negotiating table so that no more lives are senselessly wasted

What's to negotiate? Russia has seized Ukrainian territory. Ukraine wants it back. There's nothing for Ukraine to concede.

The only side "wasting" lives here is Russia, if they'd just go home the war would be over. Ukraine's not going to try seizing any Russian territory.

Show threadBunkerBusterKeatonJun 13, 2023

i am once again urging you to understand that the war began in 2014.

the LPR and DPR regions are ethnically russian. they were living peacefully until 2014 when their political parties were disbanded and they've been systematically shelled by ukranians every day since 2014. minsk 2 would have reintegrated Donbas with Ukraine with some protections for its minority population, but Ukraine didn’t even implement the first step. zelensky was elected on a platform of ending the war, but when he tried Azov told him they would rather coup his government than stand down. at some point when negotiations are broken down the only thing any organization has left to do is resort to violence, which the Russian state did when it felt threatened enough by NATO (which if you’ll recall spent months warmongering prior to the invasion start) to justify the risk.