Allen Holub
"To succeed [with Agile] even on a small scale you need to understand agility, meaning you need practice agility without thought, without quoting a book or the Scrum Guide." -Brad Black
Apr 8, 2023 at 5:46pmWeb
Show threadGeorge DinwiddieApr 8, 2023
@allenholub
Hmmm... That phrase "without thought" seems to describe many people/orgs that struggle with Agile.
Show threadAllen HolubApr 8, 2023
@gdinwiddie I took it in the Zen sense. If you're thinking about doing, you are not doing, you're thinking. When I play the piano, I don't think at all. I just play.
Show threadGeorge DinwiddieApr 8, 2023

@allenholub
Do you play defined songs?
If you're improvising, I suspect there's some thinking involved, expressed as the notes played.

Playing the same song repeatedly is fine. Going through the same software-development motions repeatedly seems no better than quoting the book.

Yes, it's good to practice what your doing until you've integrated it well enough that you're comfortable exploring the language of the practice. I don't think you get there "without thought." Or reach that endpoint.

Show threadAllen HolubApr 8, 2023
@gdinwiddie
I play a little classical music, tho not much. There is some thinking, even when you're playing (most good classical musicians read a few bars ahead of their fingers). Classical music is more of a waterfall process. A big plan up front (the score), then lots of small plans as you proceed. In the music I play, however, there is no score to interpret—no upfront plan beyond a strategic one (e.g., "make it swing"), and sometimes not even that. No conscious thinking. More agility.
Show threadGeorge DinwiddieApr 8, 2023
@allenholub
With the jazz players I've known, there's considerable thinking. The thinking, and the communicating, is in the language of music, however. It's not at the level of "I must use this finger on this valve." It's much higher level, but still thinking.
Show threadAllen HolubApr 8, 2023
@gdinwiddie Maybe we have different notions of what "thinking" means. It's like throwing a ball. You don't work out the calculus ahead of time, you just throw.
Show threadGeorge DinwiddieApr 8, 2023

@allenholub
You think about where to throw it, certainly. And you subconsciously think about how hard to throw it.

If you throw it too hard or not hard enough, you think about how to compensate the next time.

Show threadAllen HolubApr 8, 2023
@gdinwiddie None of that happens during the act of throwing. It's like driving. Sure, you think about your destination, stop signs, &c. You do not think about the actual controlling-the-vehicle part, though. You focus on a strategic goal (the destination), and the car moves to that point. You do not think "I need to move the steering wheel to correct from drift." You just do it.
Show threadGeorge DinwiddieApr 8, 2023
@allenholub
My point is that you're still thinking, but in terms of what you're doing, not how you're doing it. You're not translating from some other language.
Show threadAllen HolubApr 8, 2023
@gdinwiddie I think that we have radically different notions of what "thinking" means. For me, when I play, I'm listening to the music, not consciously creating it. There's no more conscious thought associated with it than there is in controlling my gall bladder.
Show threadGeorge DinwiddieApr 8, 2023
@allenholub
Perhaps you don't think about it, but the good jazz musicians I know think, and communicate with each other, directly in music. They have to translate that to words to tell me about the process because I don't have the fluency to communicate that way.
Show threadAllen HolubApr 8, 2023
@gdinwiddie I never said there was no communication. There is lots of close listening and responding. I don't see that sort of communication as "thinking." There's certainly nothing analytical about it.
Show threadGeorge DinwiddieApr 8, 2023
@allenholub There's decisions about what to play next. That, to me, implies thinking.
Show threadAllen HolubApr 8, 2023
@gdinwiddie No. There is often no conscious decision in that. No deciding. The music tells you what to do next. There's also no consciousness involved in playing the instrument. You are not consciously directing your fingers. I've been playing this way for 40+ years.
Show threadGeorge DinwiddieApr 8, 2023
@allenholub
I suppose that's the difference between classical and jazz.
Show threadAllen HolubApr 9, 2023
@gdinwiddie One of many.
Show threadHowieBApr 8, 2023
@allenholub
To succeed [with anything] even on a small scale you need your customers to indicate that they got the functionality they paid for!! Examples please!!
Show threadAllen HolubApr 8, 2023
@howieb You cannot think about the mechanics of throwing a ball, you just throw it. If you actively think about it, your throw will not be a good one. Thinking about throwing and actually throwing are distinct, incompatible, activities.