Laurie VossFeb 11, 2023
You're not stupid for using a framework, and nobody has pulled a fast one on you. https://seldo.com/posts/the_case_for_frameworks
The case for frameworks

Today I read Alex Russell's post The Market for Lemons and I found myself compelled to write a rebuttal. I am a big fan of Alex's work in general but not of this post in particular, which is very long, so allow me to attempt to summarize it

Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 11, 2023

@seldo economics indeed but the changing storyline is also well documented (yes that's grifting!)

And also ppl need to know how HTML/etc work in order to use React not the other way around.

Show threadLaurie VossFeb 11, 2023
@brianleroux I do not think everybody is using React because Guillermo is just really, really persuasive.
Show threadAndy GockeFeb 12, 2023
@seldo @brianleroux You're stating this like it's facially ridiculous, but I don't see why it is. "Persuasive" not just meaning personally persuasive, but persuasive with the backing and credibility of Facebook? This does not seem particularly far-fetched.
Show threadLaurie VossFeb 12, 2023
@agocke @brianleroux Millions and million of developers are using React. In surveys I run they report high satisfaction with React. They're not just using it because they were impressed with it, or because somebody told them to. Developers really like React, and I have thousands of data points to prove it.
Show threadAndy GockeFeb 12, 2023
@seldo @brianleroux Fair enough, but I think it's a point you have to argue with data! Not immediately obvious.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023

@agocke @seldo I didn't see the part where anyone was debating devs like it or use it.

The points made by Alex and others are concerned with the poor outputs and the advocates changing their stories. (See your colleagues Zach's post about React criticism for ex.)

Show threadLaurie VossFeb 12, 2023
@brianleroux @agocke The flaw in Alex's argument is that he focuses only on the (admittedly bad!) results React gets for low-power mobile devices. My point is that developers are not *unaware* of the bad outcomes, they like React *despite* the bad outcomes, so let's look at why. The idea that developers  cannot see that bad outcomes, poor creatures, only Alex can, is why the whole thing comes off as insulting.
Show threadelle mundyFeb 12, 2023
@seldo @brianleroux @agocke junior developers using the top of the line MacBook Pro supplied by their company on corporate gigabit internet and/or running a dev server on localhost certainly can’t see those outcomes, unless their teams invest heavily in instrumentation, profiling, observability, regression testing, etc., which many teams are not only unwilling to do, but also unaware of at all. not talking about top sites here
Show threadLaurie VossFeb 12, 2023
@exchgr @brianleroux @agocke I have spent a great deal of time talking to junior devs just coming out of bootcamps and I simply do not believe that they are unaware of the tradeoffs they are making. They are junior so they are both less empowered by the organization to effect change and less experienced at writing things quickly that would be better, so they can do less to ameliorate the bad outcomes, but I refuse to accept they're unaware of them.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023
@seldo @exchgr @agocke that makes me optimistic they're open to changing at least
Show threadJan Lehnardt Feb 12, 2023

@brianleroux @seldo I can too attest to said gaslighting. And I’m a heavy SPA user because for the longest time that was the only way to build fully offline capable applications on the web.

Let’s hope for a better future here. 🙏

Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023

@janl @seldo yes, and the only way to build hybrid apps too. Well, only good way. But got mobbed for suggesting backend rendered was a better default. The webpack guy, employees of said company, called me "irrelevant old guard" while the coworkers all dog piled likes.

Respect is a two way street and they lost mine a long time ago. When ppl show you who they are I believe them.

Show threadJan Lehnardt Feb 12, 2023
@brianleroux I get side-eye from my co-workers when I ask “does the back button work?”, doing this shoddy is so pervasive :/
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023
@janl this is why I think it's ok to have professional standards. To me, working links, forms and back button is baseline basics. If that's all good: go to town enhancing. Starting with a broken foundation isn't professional work and it's ok to say it.
Show threadEmelia 👸🏻Feb 12, 2023

@brianleroux @janl don't you think it's a bit on the nose what you're saying about SPA devs & "using the platform", when you yourself had a reasonably big moment in tech not using the platform (Native Apps vs PhoneGap), or is that history you'd like to forget about?

Everyone makes trade-offs, and you are not above them.

Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023
@thisismissem @janl no I'm proud of my work there thx. I'm not trying to denigrate any individuals just ideas. And yeaj I am confident in my perspective thx to experience like you've mentioned and are trying to make me feel poorly about for some reason.
Show threadEmelia 👸🏻

@brianleroux my point is more: you made a name for yourself encouraging folks not to writing native apps (iOS, Android, and Windows), often leading to developers creating applications that were great or performant on any platform.

So it's a bit on the nose for you to be saying developers are unprofessional because they opted for a SPA framework & didn't prioritise making the back button work (which iirc, was actually a common gripe about phonegap apps)

Everyone makes trade-offs

Feb 12, 2023 at 5:22pmWeb
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023

@thisismissem I read what you said and it's not true.

We always stated the point was write web standards and focus on web technology. It was a "stop gap". We definitely had poor experiences and occasional good ones like Instagram for example.

Unprofessional work is possible with any technology. I'm not saying all spas are bad but I am saying there are better default ways of building web apps.

Show threadEmelia 👸🏻Feb 12, 2023

@brianleroux right, and you can build good SPAs with React (Remix is a case-in-point), just like it was possible to make good apps with PhoneGap.

If majority of developers are making a trade-off though to use these tools in ways that give bad user experiences, I'm gonna go with either naivety (didn't know) or trade-off (didn't prioritise), that doesn't necessarily make them unprofessional or the tools they use bad.

Show threadEmelia 👸🏻Feb 12, 2023
@brianleroux Also, whilst your intention might've been to create a better web, let's be honest, that's not why companies used PhoneGap, they used it because it was seen as a cost-efficient way to build for multiple platforms, user experience be damned.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023
@thisismissem I get it. You didnt like PG and you don't respect our motivation to build it. It's over now and you can let it go. I have.
Show threadEmelia 👸🏻Feb 12, 2023
@brianleroux that's not what I'm saying: I'm saying folks chose PhoneGap for similar reasons that they choose React, and both can lead to poor experiences, and those choices aren't necessarily unprofessional or stupid, they are choices made in the context of the constraints within which they work.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023
@thisismissem I'm talking about the work not the people.
Show threadEmelia 👸🏻Feb 12, 2023
@brianleroux calling someone's work unprofessional is pretty much the same as calling them unprofessional, you can't separate the two. They are intrinsically linked.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023
@thisismissem so what are the hallmarks of professional work to you? Is there any quality bar at all? (Note: asking about the outputs not the people or their conduct.)
Show threadEmelia 👸🏻Feb 12, 2023
@brianleroux doing what you need to to meet your goals and deadlines to build the features you need to build within the constraints you have.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023
@thisismissem that's conduct
Show threadEmelia 👸🏻Feb 12, 2023

@brianleroux we can judge code to the cows come home, but judging it in isolation is not useful — there's just different compromises to make, and some of them get made with very little thought, which is actually okay: you can't do everything.

A certain set of decisions doesn't make work unprofessional, or those who did it unprofessional or stupid.

Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023

@thisismissem yeah I'm not taking issue w all devs or even any individual devs. Context is important.

I will stand by the opinion that working links, forms and good performance by default are hallmarks of professional work.