Laurie VossFeb 11, 2023
You're not stupid for using a framework, and nobody has pulled a fast one on you. https://seldo.com/posts/the_case_for_frameworks
The case for frameworks

Today I read Alex Russell's post The Market for Lemons and I found myself compelled to write a rebuttal. I am a big fan of Alex's work in general but not of this post in particular, which is very long, so allow me to attempt to summarize it

Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 11, 2023

@seldo economics indeed but the changing storyline is also well documented (yes that's grifting!)

And also ppl need to know how HTML/etc work in order to use React not the other way around.

Show threadLaurie VossFeb 11, 2023
@brianleroux I do not think everybody is using React because Guillermo is just really, really persuasive.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 11, 2023
@seldo I didn't say that did I?!
Show threadLaurie VossFeb 11, 2023
@brianleroux I just don't think any grifting is involved. People are choosing what works for them.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 11, 2023
@seldo well they're definitely being deliberately misleading to a large audience of less experienced devs (not just one individual either) and to me that's not professional behavior whether it works for them or not. Which, given the outcomes esp in performance and a11y: not working actually. Not an opinion these are all super well documented claims.
Show threadLaurie VossFeb 11, 2023
@brianleroux I just don't believe it. I don't think they're being deliberately misleading. I don't think devs, experienced or otherwise, are being misled. The outcomes in performance and accessibility are unfortunate by-products of capitalism and not because people are dumb.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 11, 2023
@seldo I don't think anyone is dumb given how long it's been going on they definitely are aware of the outcomes. Like nobody is using the Nintendo eStore or Home Depot or any of the other innumerable bad web experiences we all suffer daily thinking "wow this great professional work". They absolutely know the outputs are garbage and they sell it as otherwise usually justified by the lie it's necessary because it's popular.
Show threadLaurie VossFeb 11, 2023
@brianleroux Again, I simply do not believe any of that is true. The people who produce those web experiences are doing the best they can with the resources they have and are not justifying it because it's popular, they know it's the best they can do in the time they've been given to do it and the number of colleagues they have. I don't need to assume ill intent to explain what I'm seeing.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 11, 2023

@seldo I'm not blaming devs and agree ppl are doing the best they can w the information they've got. They are being mislead, again that's clearly documented, and it's way past time we stop excusing unprofessional outputs.

It's ok to expect better, and do better by web consumers and creators alike.

Show threadisaacsFeb 12, 2023
@brianleroux @seldo yeah, I'm with Laurie on this. It's not just new devs, and not just people lacking information.
For example, I have been making websites and using JavaScript as long as anyone. I have written brutal hacks jquery was too heavy for msie users on dialup. And I usually choose react for all new web projects, because my time is more valuable than the users lost, especially at the start when a project just needs to be proven out by some usage asap.
Show threadisaacsFeb 12, 2023
@brianleroux @seldo imo too often this is framed as a binary "react vs no frameworks", when really there ARE ways to use react more responsibly in the middle ground, which we as a community need to be advocating for more. A remix site carefully built using progressive enhancement is only slightly more/different work than a typical SPA approach, and fairly easy to transition to from a more bloated browser-only approach. That needs to be taught in bootcamps etc. imo
Show threadisaacsFeb 12, 2023
@brianleroux @seldo but even then, if the first rev of an app is faster to put in front of people as a bloated pile of onClick events that doesn't work at all until js is loaded? That's the correct economic choice a lot of the time. That's how I built https://model.tier.run and frankly I'm glad I didn't spend time optimizing for low power/network devices from the start, because it would've been more work and largely wasted effort.
Tier.run Model Builder

Show threadisaacsFeb 12, 2023
@brianleroux @seldo hell, it still looks awful on narrow screens, but that wasn't the p0 bug to fix, so whatever. (I will fix it soon, but the value in *starting* there was negative.)
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚
@isaacs @seldo I get it. My opinion is HTML is a fine starting point and pretty fast too.
Feb 12, 2023 at 5:11pmWeb
Show threadisaacsFeb 12, 2023
@brianleroux @seldo I mean, and I know you know this, "it depends". For some things, maybe even a majority of websites, sure, plain old html and 100% server side routing and generation may be a good starting point. For others, it might require committing to interaction patterns and making them costly to change, before they're proven out. And in a LOT of cases, it's never economical to care about one approach vs another or adjust either way.