Laurie VossFeb 11, 2023
You're not stupid for using a framework, and nobody has pulled a fast one on you. https://seldo.com/posts/the_case_for_frameworks
The case for frameworks

Today I read Alex Russell's post The Market for Lemons and I found myself compelled to write a rebuttal. I am a big fan of Alex's work in general but not of this post in particular, which is very long, so allow me to attempt to summarize it

Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 11, 2023

@seldo economics indeed but the changing storyline is also well documented (yes that's grifting!)

And also ppl need to know how HTML/etc work in order to use React not the other way around.

Show threadLaurie VossFeb 11, 2023
@brianleroux I do not think everybody is using React because Guillermo is just really, really persuasive.
Show threadAndy GockeFeb 12, 2023
@seldo @brianleroux You're stating this like it's facially ridiculous, but I don't see why it is. "Persuasive" not just meaning personally persuasive, but persuasive with the backing and credibility of Facebook? This does not seem particularly far-fetched.
Show threadLaurie VossFeb 12, 2023
@agocke @brianleroux Millions and million of developers are using React. In surveys I run they report high satisfaction with React. They're not just using it because they were impressed with it, or because somebody told them to. Developers really like React, and I have thousands of data points to prove it.
Show threadAndy GockeFeb 12, 2023
@seldo @brianleroux Fair enough, but I think it's a point you have to argue with data! Not immediately obvious.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023

@agocke @seldo I didn't see the part where anyone was debating devs like it or use it.

The points made by Alex and others are concerned with the poor outputs and the advocates changing their stories. (See your colleagues Zach's post about React criticism for ex.)

Show threadLaurie VossFeb 12, 2023
@brianleroux @agocke The flaw in Alex's argument is that he focuses only on the (admittedly bad!) results React gets for low-power mobile devices. My point is that developers are not *unaware* of the bad outcomes, they like React *despite* the bad outcomes, so let's look at why. The idea that developers  cannot see that bad outcomes, poor creatures, only Alex can, is why the whole thing comes off as insulting.
Show threadelle mundyFeb 12, 2023
@seldo @brianleroux @agocke junior developers using the top of the line MacBook Pro supplied by their company on corporate gigabit internet and/or running a dev server on localhost certainly can’t see those outcomes, unless their teams invest heavily in instrumentation, profiling, observability, regression testing, etc., which many teams are not only unwilling to do, but also unaware of at all. not talking about top sites here
Show threadLaurie VossFeb 12, 2023
@exchgr @brianleroux @agocke I have spent a great deal of time talking to junior devs just coming out of bootcamps and I simply do not believe that they are unaware of the tradeoffs they are making. They are junior so they are both less empowered by the organization to effect change and less experienced at writing things quickly that would be better, so they can do less to ameliorate the bad outcomes, but I refuse to accept they're unaware of them.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023
@seldo @exchgr @agocke that makes me optimistic they're open to changing at least
Show threadJan Lehnardt Feb 12, 2023

@brianleroux @seldo I can too attest to said gaslighting. And I’m a heavy SPA user because for the longest time that was the only way to build fully offline capable applications on the web.

Let’s hope for a better future here. 🙏

Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023

@janl @seldo yes, and the only way to build hybrid apps too. Well, only good way. But got mobbed for suggesting backend rendered was a better default. The webpack guy, employees of said company, called me "irrelevant old guard" while the coworkers all dog piled likes.

Respect is a two way street and they lost mine a long time ago. When ppl show you who they are I believe them.

Show threadJan Lehnardt Feb 12, 2023
@brianleroux I get side-eye from my co-workers when I ask “does the back button work?”, doing this shoddy is so pervasive :/
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023
@janl this is why I think it's ok to have professional standards. To me, working links, forms and back button is baseline basics. If that's all good: go to town enhancing. Starting with a broken foundation isn't professional work and it's ok to say it.
Show threadJan Lehnardt 
@brianleroux yeah, and I’ve seen enough people (devs and deciders) who were brought up in this world and they don’t realise how shaky their foundations are and that there are other approaches.
Feb 12, 2023 at 4:54pmWeb