Scarlet the FoxJan 27, 2023

I studied capitalism in college because it was a particular interest of mine. I hated it. I also wanted to understand it, so that I could know why it rubbed me the wrong way and live intentionally to push against it.

There was this moment when I was in a grad course and the professor was talking about self-optimizing markets. That's when it hit me. I literally stood up in the class, interrupted everything and went like "wait, the math isn't optimizing for income inequality". It was kind of funny watching more than 100 little economists in training suddenly start tearing apart the equation at once. You could literally hear the sound of frantic spreadsheeting and charting.

In the end, the professor himself said that it was true, you could achieve a fully "optimized" economy with literally everything being owned by a handful of people. Made me think.

How is a system supposed to be beneficial for us all when the mathematics at its core don't actually consider societal benefit?

If an economy is fully "optimized" but everyone is sick, sad, and angry - is it actually optimal?

A mathematical model can make sense without being sensible. This is why I have an implicit distrust of algorithms and other systems of optimization. It's also why I'm a socialist.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

Show threadBill SeitzJan 28, 2023
@scarlet so what *was* it optimizing for?
Show threadSocialistStanJan 28, 2023
@billseitz @scarlet Most profitable price point for any good or service, externalities be damned.
Show threadColin MacAllisterJan 30, 2023

@billseitz @SocialistStan @scarlet but that’s why we don’t live in an anarchy — so we can tax the wealth and put excess profits back into the welfare of all — so we maximize growth but consciously minimize inequality — or we would if we neoliberals we’re in charge ;-)

Pre-WTO China was very “fair” but had no superabundance of wealth to redistribute, so everyone was on the edge of starvation all the time.

Show threadSocialistStanJan 30, 2023

@dcoli @billseitz @scarlet

If we lived in an anarchy we wouldn't need to tax the wealthy, because we would have equality ingrained into the system.

Basically you want a system where the government and the elite choose not to oppress people, I want a system where they can't.

Show threadColin MacAllisterJan 30, 2023
@SocialistStan @billseitz @scarlet you can’t enforce anarchy. Gangs will form, and then we’re back to the worst forms of government.
Show threadSocialistStan
@dcoli @billseitz @scarlet Of course you can enforce anarchy, dealing with a gang is just dealing with a government in miniature, dismantle hierarchies as they form.
Jan 30, 2023 at 3:21amWeb
Show threadColin MacAllisterJan 30, 2023
@scarlet @SocialistStan @billseitz who organizes to dismantle the already more organized gang? That’s not how power works, I fear
Show threadSocialistStanJan 30, 2023

@dcoli @scarlet @billseitz If you have questions about what anarchy on a large scale looks like look at the region of Zomia in Southeast Asia, they've had anarchy for millennia. It's entirely possible there, and it will become increasingly possible here too as the neoliberal order crumbles, US decline is just getting started.

https://archive.org/details/artofnotbeinggov0000scot

The art of not being governed : an anarchist history of upland Southeast Asia : Scott, James C., author : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

1 online resource (xviii, 442 pages) :

Internet Archive
Show threadColin MacAllisterJan 30, 2023
@scarlet @SocialistStan @billseitz I’m sorry, but that isn’t the trend.
Show threadSocialistStanJan 30, 2023
@dcoli @scarlet @billseitz And your proof is?
Show thread🧙‍♂️ Julian Invictus ☕Feb 7, 2023

@SocialistStan

"Among the strategies employed by the people of Zomia to remain stateless are physical dispersion in rugged terrain; agricultural practices that enhance mobility; pliable ethnic identities; devotion to prophetic, millenarian leaders; and maintenance of a largely oral culture that allows them to reinvent their histories and genealogies as they move between and around states. In accessible language, James Scott, recognized worldwide as an eminent authority in Southeast Asian, peasant, and agrarian studies, tells the story of the peoples of Zomia and their unlikely odyssey in search of self-determination."

This is why Anarchists get accused of being Reactionary, you lot tend to idealize regressive societies. You might as well cop to being Malthusians, or something, because all the models Anarchists keep presenting are widely-dispersed agrarian peasantries with no technology. Like, sure, that model of society might be great if you don't have dense urban populations in the millions or higher.

"Look how Zomia does it," you say. Okay - by not living in urban environments, following prophets, abandoning technology. Thanks, I hate it.

Show threadSocialistStanFeb 7, 2023

@Julian_Invictus

Lets shoot down this strawman real quick and look at the principles involved.

Each society is different, but the general principles are transferable.

Dispersion in rugged terrain allows them to build self-sustaining communities and make it hard for a state to concentrate on a given area. In North America this would look more like a network of independent cities than tiny villages. The important part is that urban areas become self-sustaining.

Show threadSocialistStanFeb 7, 2023

@Julian_Invictus

Agricultural practices that enhance mobility prevent there from being a single source of food for a state to take over. There are lot of technologies that could do this for a city, urban farming, hydroponics, etc.

Pliable ethnic identities already exist in urban populations.

Show threadSocialistStanFeb 7, 2023

@Julian_Invictus

States are a form of civic religion, so devotion to anyone or anything other than the state definitely competes with it. Here traditional religion is declining and personal spirituality and devotion to personal principles provides the same competition to state worship.

We reinvent our histories and genealogies through the internet, not orally, but same thing.

Notice it's embracing technology that makes this possible in an urban society, not abandoning it.