Scarlet the FoxJan 27, 2023

I studied capitalism in college because it was a particular interest of mine. I hated it. I also wanted to understand it, so that I could know why it rubbed me the wrong way and live intentionally to push against it.

There was this moment when I was in a grad course and the professor was talking about self-optimizing markets. That's when it hit me. I literally stood up in the class, interrupted everything and went like "wait, the math isn't optimizing for income inequality". It was kind of funny watching more than 100 little economists in training suddenly start tearing apart the equation at once. You could literally hear the sound of frantic spreadsheeting and charting.

In the end, the professor himself said that it was true, you could achieve a fully "optimized" economy with literally everything being owned by a handful of people. Made me think.

How is a system supposed to be beneficial for us all when the mathematics at its core don't actually consider societal benefit?

If an economy is fully "optimized" but everyone is sick, sad, and angry - is it actually optimal?

A mathematical model can make sense without being sensible. This is why I have an implicit distrust of algorithms and other systems of optimization. It's also why I'm a socialist.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

Show threadMike FraserJan 28, 2023
@scarlet IMHO Capitalism is rife with problems but if you put aside politics a lot of those problems are easily regulated. Taxing out capital so it doesn't pool is the big one. Busting Manopolies is the next biggest. A vibrant organic well regulated economy is preferable to the fully planned Soviet model in my mind.
Show threadSocialistStanJan 28, 2023

@mike @scarlet
All taxation and nationalization would do is put more money and power in the hands of the government which will go to pigs and prisons, we need to put more money and power in the hands of the people

Speaking of the soviet model, it was ahead of it's time in that they didn't have the data collection and processing technologies pulling off something like that would have actually required

Chile did some interesting experiments before the fascists came in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn

Project Cybersyn - Wikipedia

Show threadMike Fraser
@SocialistStan @scarlet Pigs and prisons were exactly what the Soviets were well known for. Labour still needs incentive and working at the glorious peoples tractor factory for the betterment of the state ain't it. I would however support a UBI to take care of basic needs. This would create a true competitive labour market.
Jan 28, 2023 at 7:29pmWeb
Show threadSocialistStanJan 28, 2023

@mike @scarlet

Exactly. As long as we keep confusing the people with the government there will always be those who want to give the government the means of production thinking the government is the people. That's what happened in the Soviet Union.

The people need to own the means of production, and it has be done so communally. Central planning can have a role in that, but the planner can't be just another bureaucrat, it has to be an opensource system.

Show threadMike FraserJan 28, 2023
@SocialistStan @scarlet I don't agree. Fundemdaly I don't think collectives have the capacity to correctly forsee and identify need. This is where enterprise steps in. The problem now is that enterprise is too heavily rewarded. There should be incentive and organic markets but regulated by governments of and by the people. The collective sets the boundaries, individuals identify the need. You say the people must own the means of production, who are the people?
Show threadSocialistStanJan 28, 2023

@mike @scarlet A capitalist enterprise is just a collective with internal authoritarianism.

We are the people, every stakeholder in a given enterprise should have a say and a share of the profits.

There is no such thing as a government by and for the people, unless the people govern themselves.

Show threadSocialistStanJan 28, 2023

@mike @scarlet UBI will just raise prices by the amount of UBI. Executives would love to have a known wallet share to compete over instead of guessing how much a market is worth.

Take the car market for example, we know how much the average person spends on car payments as a percentage of income and now much the UBI is, so Ford, Honda, Buick, etc would get together and set their prices to divide up the newly available dollars.

It just makes us better money conduits for the rich.

Show threadMike FraserJan 28, 2023
@SocialistStan @scarlet Inflation is the issue with UBI, I'm confident though that if someone put a brain cell on it you could effectively index UBI and punish price gouging.
Show threadSocialistStanJan 28, 2023

@mike @scarlet Not that it wouldn't help labor markets, or relieve suffering in the moment, but it is a way of keeping the economic power structure intact.

That's why a millionaire like Andrew Yang can back it unironically.

Show threadMike FraserJan 28, 2023
@SocialistStan @scarlet I'll let you have the last word. I need to disengage now and take care of life. PS I'd love a UBI, as soon as my kid is out the door I'd simplify my life and drop out for a while, lol..