mrzaius🚾Jan 20, 2023
Ex-Amazon employees on the almost impressively cynical way Amazon smile started:
Show threadJiva DeVoeJan 20, 2023

@mrzaius @uliwitness question: why is this bad? Some people I know would say this shows capitalism is compassionate. They’d argue that amazons motivation is irrelevant and the out come of the charity receiving anything is good.

So what’s bad here, other than just being judgy about why they’re doing it.

Show threadAdam Cook

@jiva @mrzaius @uliwitness I am with you on this.

If this program benefitted small charities that do not possess large donation machinery and that would have otherwise received less if not for AmazonSmile, I am pleased to hear it.

I think the truth of the program's origin should be known, but I can see the positive side here - even if Amazon did it ultimately for cynical reasons.

Jan 20, 2023 at 2:48amElk
Show threadMatt "msw" WilsonJan 20, 2023
@adamjcook @jiva @mrzaius @uliwitness why "cynical"?
Show threadAdam CookJan 20, 2023

@msw @jiva @mrzaius @uliwitness It seems to me that if those Reddit posts are accurate, Amazon created this program purely out of self-interest.

Perhaps a word choice that is too harsh on my part?

I am open to that.

I suppose that, at the end of the day, it does not matter much how it is defined.

If small charities got paid, I am not going to knock Amazon for that.

Sad to see AmazonSmile go then, I guess... as those charities may not receive what they did before.

Show threadMatt "msw" WilsonJan 20, 2023

@adamjcook @jiva @mrzaius @uliwitness ah, I see. I'm not used to seeing "cynical" as the contrast against "altruism".

I am skeptical that altruism exists in humanity (https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/altruism/), and it's _definitely_ not how corporations operating in a capitalist system tend to operate.

I think that "enlightened self-interest" is generally more reliable behavior to expect than altruism.

But I wouldn't call that cynicism. Just reality (based on my personal, biased, flawed perspective).

Altruism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Show threadAdam CookJan 20, 2023

@msw @jiva @mrzaius @uliwitness Gotcha! 😉

I can get onboard with that.

Show threadrobinJan 21, 2023

@msw
I got tons of time for this philosophy, but I do think it's only tangentially related exactly what motivations are deep in our hearts.

Practically speaking, there are plenty of companies who, whether or not it's a "cynical calculation" on some level, have departments dedicated to giving back in a way that actually costs the company.

There is an important difference.
@adamjcook @jiva @mrzaius @uliwitness

Show threadrobinJan 21, 2023
@msw
What I see is a company whose leadership is so laser-focused on profit profit profit that their poor employees, who are human beings, aren't able to demonstrate any kind of compassion without first showing categorically that it won't compromise on Amazon's exploitation and domination if the market.
@adamjcook @jiva @mrzaius @uliwitness
Show threadAndreas KJan 21, 2023

@adamjcook @msw @jiva @mrzaius @uliwitness
The problem is that the motivation limits the program strongly.

Amazon is using the possibility of getting a tiny amount of money to some charity to shape user behaviour (use inferior Amazon internal search. Google might not be much better, but specialized search engines are).

Now as the employees say the charities are completely irrelevant to the program. So they should be for you when it comes to evaluating it.

Show threadMatt "msw" WilsonJan 21, 2023
@yacc143 @adamjcook @jiva @mrzaius @uliwitness I don't think anyone said that the charities were irrelevant.
Show threadAndreas KJan 21, 2023

@msw @adamjcook @jiva @mrzaius @uliwitness

Then read the reddit posts.

“because giving to charity isn't the point of the overall program”

It's like patting yourself about buying a Tesla helping the CO₂ situation on the planet.

While Tesla selling their CO₂ credits to “more traditional carmakers” so they could continue to build gas guzzling SUVs for many years after these were politically forbidden. While making Tesla survive.

It's an unplanned for side effect, nothing more.

Show threadă‚Șăƒăƒ„ăƒŒ (stop colonialism đŸ‡”đŸ‡ž)Jan 20, 2023
@msw @adamjcook @jiva @mrzaius @uliwitness Yup, to me the real cynical part is grown people still not knowing multinational are not about giving moral/consistency any shit. They'll do charity or burn humans industrially, whatever, as long as there is profit to be made or a markets to secure.
Show threadrobinJan 21, 2023

@otyugh

So what are you going to do with that knowledge? Shrug your shoulders and say "hey that's what the world is, why are you idiots bothering you call them out" and go about your day, secure in your grown-up knowledge that they're happily and freely burning the world and exploiting their fellow humans?

@msw @adamjcook @jiva @mrzaius @uliwitness

Show threadSörenJan 21, 2023

@msw @adamjcook @jiva @mrzaius @uliwitness because

‱ they get to pay less money to Google
‱ they get to pay fewer taxes

is being sold to the public as “smile” and “look what we’re doing to help charities”. They’re whitewashing a cost-saving measure (which perverts the law, to boot) as “goodwill”.

I think “cynical” is spot on. Is it the worst they’ve done? No, there’s plenty more. But is it a good thing? No.

Show threadAdam CookJan 21, 2023

@chucker @msw @jiva @mrzaius @uliwitness Sure. To be clear, I am not ignoring the tradeoffs and the corporate tax issues.

I am just looking at it from an extremely simplistic perspective... small charitable organizations and non-profits received some money that they would not have otherwise.

I am happy for those organizations that benefited.

Show threadMr_FahrenheitJan 21, 2023
@adamjcook @jiva @mrzaius @uliwitness I got into Amazon smile by way of my local judo club. Very small non profit. At the time I had already been using Amazon.com for most of my commoditized purchases, so no behavior change on my part. A couple hundred bucks in donations later, and the judo club can buy some uniforms for kids who can't afford them.