Denny VrandečićJan 15, 2023
I was just reading a long discussion regarding the differences between Open Street Maps and Wikipedia / Wikidata, and one of the mappers complained "Wiki* cares less about accuracy than the fact that there is something that can be cited", and calling Wikipedia / Wikidata contributions "armchair work" because we don't go out into the world to check a fact, but rely on references. 1/n
Show threadDenny VrandečićJan 15, 2023

I understand the expressed frustration, but at the same time I'm having a hard time letting go of "reliability not truth" being a pillar of Wikipedia.

But this makes Wikipedia an inherently conservative project, because we don't reflect a change in the world or in our perception directly, but have to wait for reliable sources to put it in the record. There's something I was deeply uncomfortable with: so much of my life is devoted to a conservative project? 2/n

Show threadDenny VrandečićJan 15, 2023
Wikipedia is a conservative project, but at the same time it's a revolutionary project. Making knowledge free and making knowledge production participatory is politically and socially a revolutionary act. How can this seeming contradiction be brought to a higher level of synthesis? 3/n
Show threadDenny VrandečićJan 15, 2023
In the last few years, my discomfort with the idea of Wikipedia being conservative has considerably dissipated. One might think, sure, that happened because I'm getting older, and as we get older, we get more conservative (there's, by the way, unfortunate data questioning this premise: maybe the conservative ones simply live longer because of inequalities). Maybe. 4/n
Show threadDenny VrandečićJan 15, 2023
But maybe the meaning of "conservative" has changed. When I was young, the word conservative referred to right wing politicians who aimed to preserve the values and institutions of their days. An increasingly influential part of todays right wing though has turned into a movement that does not conserve and preserve values such as democracy, the environment, equality, freedoms, the scientific method. This is why I'm more comfortable with Wikipedia's conservative aspects than I used to be. 5/n
Show threadDenny VrandečićJan 15, 2023
But at the same time, that can lead to a problematic stasis. We need to acknowledge that the sources and references Wikipedia has been built on, are biased due to historic and ongoing inequalities in the world, due to different values regarding the importance of certain types of references in the world. 6/n
Show threadDenny VrandečićJan 15, 2023
If we truly believe that Wikipedia aims to provide everyone with access to the sum of all human knowledge, we have to continue the conversations that have started about oral histories, about traditional knowledges, beyond the confines of academic publications. We have to continue and put this conversation and evolution further into the center of the movement. 7/n
Show threadDenny VrandečićJan 15, 2023
Happy Birthday, Wikipedia! 22 years, while I'm 44 - half of my life (although I haven't joined until two years later). For an entire generation the world has always been a world with free knowledge that everyone can contribute to. I hope there is no going back from that achievement. 8/n
Show threadDenny VrandečićJan 15, 2023
But just as democracy and freedom, this is not a value that is automatically part of our world. It is a vision that has to be lived, that has to be defended, that has to be rediscovered and regained again and again, refined and redefined. 9/n
Show threadDenny Vrandečić
We (the collective we) must wrest it from the gatekeepers of the past (including me) to allow it to remain a living, breathing, evolving, ever changing project, in order to not see only another twenty two years, but for us to understand this project as merely a foundation that will accompany us for centuries. 10/10
Jan 15, 2023 at 7:22pmWeb
Show threadDenny VrandečićJan 15, 2023
Tags for preceding thread: #Wikipedia #Wikipedia22 #OpenStreetMaps #FreeKnowledge
Show threadJan AinaliJan 15, 2023

@vrandecic Great thread! And tricky topic! Sometimes I feel very progressive, arguing for new tools and complaining on other users blocking quick deployment. But I recognize that I also am one who am conservative and skeptic to new wild ideas.

And it doesn't help that our places for discussion are so decentralized that no one can keep track of it all. I struggle with ideas suited for volunteers on overcoming this quite basic communication issue. Is internal communications staff the only answer?

Show threadDenny VrandečićJan 15, 2023

@ainali I don't know.

As long as projects such as the English Wikipedia have such an influential opposition against centralized discussions and approaches, I have trouble seeing how we can overcome that issue, though. I'm not a big fan of affiliate driven conversations either, but at least they seem to represent a larger diversity. But it doesn't always feel like they represent the contributor community.

I really don't know.

Show threadJan AinaliJan 15, 2023
@vrandecic thinking a bit more, I don't think what I am hoping for is one single place to have all discussions. But I would like one place that surfaces them. Possibly something like a regular news service with an editorial office that makes it easier for editors to get involved in the discussions where they happen. It's probably expensive, but perhaps still worth it.
Show threadDenny VrandečićJan 15, 2023
@ainali @quiddity has a weekly newsletter with news from the communities. It's not exactly what you're looking for, but a good step in that direction
Show threadJan AinaliJan 16, 2023
@vrandecic @quiddity Oh, I totally missed that! Where can I find it?
Show threadquiddityJan 16, 2023
@ainali @vrandecic I think Denny is referring to an internal newsletter. It's mostly just a short compilation of excerpts from "Tech News", "This Month in GLAM", and the ComCom/MoveCom list.
Show threadJan AinaliJan 16, 2023

@quiddity @vrandecic Well, yes that's a good start for what I am wishing for. But scaled up to, let's say, a handful of people working full time on it.

Imagine a Wikipedia Signpost, covering the whole movement - with weekly (or perhaps even daily!) reporting.

Show threadquiddityJan 18, 2023
@ainali @vrandecic I like that idea. I wish I could clone myself to also work on it! I'll point some folks towards this sub-thread, to see if it sparks anything.
Show threadChris KoernerJan 16, 2023
@ainali Hmm.
Show threadKokanJan 16, 2023
@vrandecic I think Wiki is doing fine. As an long-standing OSM contributor, I think Wiki strikes good balance between armchairing, conservatism and pragmatism. OSM is extremely conservative project (IMHO), as one can actually die from using it! Still, this conservatism, instisting on on-the-ground truth checking migh hit us hard - there is Overture maps project by big players, and it may render OSM irrelevant. We will see how it plays out, but in hindsight, I think our balance was off.
Show threadDenny VrandečićJan 16, 2023
@kokan oh, I don't know much about what you're referring to. Is there a link to read more, or can you elaborate?
Show threadKokanJan 16, 2023
@vrandecic official site is https://overturemaps.org/. You can find various commentaries online, ranging from "complete corporate takeover of OSM" to "project that is bound to fail as corporation try to cooperate". I don't want to point to any specific, but someone tried to collect them here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_communications_related_to_Overture
Home - Overture Maps Foundation

Overture Maps Foundation
Show threadDenny VrandečićJan 16, 2023
@kokan I was more interested in your statement around "being too conservative" and what you mean with that
Show threadKokanJan 16, 2023
@vrandecic well, compared to wikipedia/wikidata where bots are normal thing, any AI/bots are not being looked at gently in OSM. Again, this makes more sense for OSM project as data can be flaky/wrong/deadly... But if you have, for example, bunch of building footprints, even from government source (most likely best it can be), no way to add them without human in the loop (checking each building). Licensing can also be PITA, etc