Manuel MatuzovićI just had a look at a side project I've abandoned in July. The setup is 11ty + petite-vue. It took me less than 10 minutes to get right back into it. No framework, no bundler, I'm loving it. <3
Sara Joy 
@matuzo wait what? I guess I don't understand what the definition of framework is... 🤔
@sarajw I'd call petite-vue a minimal JS library. You don't even have to write JS if you want to use it.
@matuzo I also thought 11ty was a framework of sorts. Like Astro and other static site generators. Or they're not?
Not here to argue, literally I'm unsure what is and what isn't a framework...
@sarajw potato, patato. :) With 11ty it depends on how you're using it. In my case it really just turns a couple of njk files to HTML, but you could also call it a framework, I guess.
@matuzo OK, sounds like I'm not wrong to be confused then, haha.
I think my own mental modal of a framework is:
A thing I download and install and type my (even vanilla) code into, to which it does a bunch of clever stuff during a build process, before I upload its output to the web.
Josh Collinsworth@sarajw @matuzo I think the confusion stems largely from the fact that we have both a colloquial and a technical definition of "framework."
Colloquially, pretty much anything you use, you could call a framework. (Sara's definition.) 11ty is a framework, in that sense.
Technically, 11ty is a static site generator. A framework would be more something you might use with an SSG or a bundler; something that has a wide impact on how you write your code and what it does for you.
@collinsworth @matuzo thank you for (sort of?) clarifying 😅
Yes I have to admit I am very confused esp when frameworks and... libraries? are also named interchangeably - React, Next, Svelte, SvelteKit, then there are... meta frameworks? So many layers. Much confuse. I need a diagram or flow chart...
@sarajw @matuzo If it helps, here's my loose general breakdown:
Library: something with code to call, but doesn't generally change how you write the rest of your JS. Usually doesn't need a bundler. (jQuery, Lodash, Alpine, Petite Vue)
Framework: changes how you write your JS; usually benefits from a bundler. (Vue, Svelte, React even though some people like to argue it's a library)
Meta-framework: all-encompassing tool to help you build a site using a specific framework (Next, Nuxt, SvelteKit)
@collinsworth thank you!!
Yeah it probably doesn't always matter what we call them but... On the other hand, if we don't vaguely agree then we aren't able to be specific when talking about these things.