DemoCat-FLJan 10, 2023
Skeptical Eye

Myth Buster: It is widely believed that EVs only reduce total emissions when powered by Green Electricity, but the fact is that even when powered by 100% coal electricity, EVs still reduce total emissions. And of course the balance swings far toward EVs as our electricity sources become greener.

-- Yes, electric vehicles are greener than gas cars β€” even when they use dirty power https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-cars-environment-emissions-gas-battery-coal-power-2022-12

Electric cars are greener even when they use dirty power, studies show

Electric cars aren't emission-free, but driving one in the US produces roughly the same emissions as a gasoline vehicle rated at 91 miles per gallon.

Insider
Jan 10, 2023 at 4:47pmWeb
Show threadDemocracy Dies in DumbassJan 10, 2023
@SkepticalEye What about their manufacturer? I've read a few places that the process of mining/building batteries is horrifically toxic...
Show threadSkeptical EyeJan 10, 2023
1/2: @ShredderFeeder -
1) True, but...
2) Considering ALL factors, even today, EVs are less bad for the environment than fossil-fuel vehicles. and electricity sources, mining practices, etc. will make the gap favoring EVs ever bigger over time.
3) The wrong kind of lithium mines, badly managed, are certainly toxic, but at the very worst, they cause local, rather than global, harm.
...
Show threadSkeptical EyeJan 10, 2023
2/2: @ShredderFeeder -
... Lithium evaporation ponds are far less bad than hard-rock mining, and ways are being developed to use/contaminate far less water.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54900418
Protecting fragile ecosystems from lithium mining

More lithium is needed to supply the electric car market, but can it be produced in a sustainable way?

BBC News
Show threadDemocracy Dies in DumbassJan 10, 2023

@SkepticalEye I'm skeptical (sic) when anyone says "far less bad" That means still bad. Which is why if I had to choose, I'd advocate for more remote-work. Cutting back on commutes would be a HUGE improvement across the board.

I don't feel guilty about driving a Mustang because I drive it less than 4,000 miles a year.

But I won't own an EV until the battery problems and issues with trapped voltage are dealt with.

Show threadDemocracy Dies in DumbassJan 10, 2023
@SkepticalEye And I'll *NEVER* own a "self-driving" car or any car connected to the internet. I know too much about how the internet (and computers) work to ever put my life in their hands. I don't fly anymore for the same reason...
Show threadSkeptical EyeJan 10, 2023
@ShredderFeeder -
Thank You. Those are all reasonable opinions.
1) I am also very much an advocate of work-from-home where it is possible. Do remember that many more people do physical work than pure office work.
2) I don't personally own an EV, and probably won't for at least 10 years.
3) MY Opinion is that practical & safe self-driving is at least 30 years away, but will eventually completely replace human drivers.
Show threadDemocracy Dies in DumbassJan 11, 2023

@SkepticalEye The thing that pits me against musk, and paints *ALL* EV's in a bad light, is his willingness to put everyone at risk to test his idea of self-driving cars.

Other people on the road didn't agree to participate in his stupid beta-test...

Show threadSkeptical EyeJan 11, 2023
@ShredderFeeder -
IMO, Musk's "full self driving" is a scam. If you chose to hold Musk's actions against all EVs, fine, but that's not a logical extrapolation. There is no natural connection between EVs and self-driving other than that Musk has championed both.
Show threadDemocracy Dies in DumbassJan 11, 2023
@SkepticalEye I don't hold self driving against all EVs... but I do think batteries are not where they need to be yet to be safe. The issues with battery fractures, fires, and delayed action fires that occure weeks after an accident, are too common to be ignored.
Show threadSkeptical EyeJan 11, 2023
@ShredderFeeder - EV fires are super dramatic and can be deadly, but they are also rare enough to be statistically insignificant.
Show threadDemocracy Dies in DumbassJan 11, 2023

@SkepticalEye More deadly is enough to keep me from trying it until huge strides can be made on battery technology.

From a pure physics standpoint it's difficult to store enough energy to push a car for any real distance. As flammable as petrol is, it's actually more stable than most people think.

The other thing about the current trend in modern cars is this:

STOP MAKING EVERYHTING SERVO CONTROLLED.

I *LIKE* having a physical steering column, brakes, door latches.

Show threadDemocracy Dies in DumbassJan 11, 2023

@SkepticalEye in any situation where the power could shut down, having a physical backup is vital.

For the record, my wife drives a 2019 Acura. I hate it and won't ride in it. Because the steering and brakes are both by wire only, no physical linkage.

Show threadRussell πŸ΄σ §σ ’σ ³σ £σ ΄σ ΏπŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦πŸ‰Jan 10, 2023
@SkepticalEye Is that true when you consider the whole supply chain of (mostly) virgin materials such as plastics, lithium, copper, rubber, various resins and adhesives, glass, steel, aluminium alloys, carbon fibre, etc. as well as the energy, green or non-green, used in the manufacture of all the components and the assembly, shipping, etc.?
Show threadSkeptical EyeJan 10, 2023
@russellt -
What I read is YES, but obviously the benefits of EVs get more dramatic as improvements are made throughout the process.