Jonas WittwerDec 9, 2022

When can someone be blamed for being sexist? Can you be responsible for being sexist if you were raised in a sexist family and have never had a chance to become aware of a different world view? Could you be blamed as an individual? Does it even make sense to think of "responsibilities" and "blame" together?

(OFC I oversimplify here)

@philosophy

Show threadJonas WittwerDec 28, 2022

@marylindelgado @hphilosopher @philosophy @Nazishmunch @jonasblatter @nowan @contessa
Sorry that it took me so long. I had to think about what you said and also had a big workload at the university and in other projects.

1/

Show threadJonas WittwerDec 28, 2022

First a small summary:
We discussed the case of whether some people who do the same but have different starting points could be blamed in the same way. A had progressive parents who taught them that all genders are equal while B had parents who taught them the opposite. Both joined a party with the goal to restore the “natural order” in which cis-men should dominate all other genders.

2/

Show threadJonas Wittwer

I agree that there are many other factors. Both have the chance to learn and that they should do this is clear. Also it seems clear to me that nobody should have to deny their rights because others did not have the chance to properly learn how to treat others well.. What A and B do is clearly harmful and both should be blamed.

3/

Dec 28, 2022 at 8:47amWeb
Show threadJonas WittwerDec 28, 2022

What makes me think more about this case is what @marylindelgado has written here:
"A sensible decision depends namely on our ability to epistemically contrast our beliefs. "

Because I think this is the relevant difference between A and B. I would say that A had much better training in doing that. (I call these ethical competences in my PhD thesis.) While B has had almost no training in it. Maybe we could also say that their ethical literacy is different?

4/

Show threadJonas WittwerDec 28, 2022

What follows from this? I think it is odd to say that nothing follows. That we should just say that both did the same because it had the same consequences and harms non cis men in the same way. This seems too simple for me. I want to hold A much more responsible for what they did. A should have known better. A had every chance in their previous life to develop these ethical competences.

5/

Show threadJonas WittwerDec 28, 2022

While B is more or less an ethical illiterate. A put away what they were given on purpose. B just follows the path they were put on by their parents.

6/

Show threadJonas WittwerDec 28, 2022

I don’t think that just by looking at the consequences we could give a good answer here. Also I don’t think we will find a proper solution to stop A and B from harming others if we ignore their background.

7/

Show threadJonas WittwerDec 28, 2022

However I also see the problem that if we non cis men are attacked by them why should we have some sort of pity with B. They threaten us. The first thing we need to is protect ourselves and see to it that they don’t get any influence in society.

8/

Show threadJonas WittwerDec 28, 2022

But maybe we could stop them differently. We could confront A with knowledge which they already have. We could confront B with counter evidence, demonstrating to them that cis women can achieve the same as cis men if they aren't oppressed by people like B….

9/

Show threadJonas WittwerDec 28, 2022

I’m not sure about all this. I struggle with this question as a philosopher and as a queer activist.

Thank you for your thoughts and sorry again that it took me so long to respond to them. I hope I did not miss any important points from you.

10/10

Show threadNazishDec 28, 2022
@feministepistemology never too late for a discussion!
The point is, as part of a minority group that has been discriminated against, what one wants is for the abuse to stop irrespective of the the individual histories of the abusers.
Once that crucial first step has been ensured, one can judge the perpetrators and the consequences can be mitigated by circumstances. But there is no absolution from the responsibility of the discriminatory behavior.
Show threadJeremyDec 28, 2022

@feministepistemology I'd understood @marylindelgado to be pointing out that we're rarely (if ever) in a position to accurately judge someone's epistemic opportunities. Based on my own experience of failing to appreciate things that (in retrospect) I should have seen and understood I'd add: even our own. So while I'm perfectly willing to say that when talking to a person like B we should be understanding, I don't think that understanding should have any bearing on our ethical judgement.

1/

Show threadJeremyDec 28, 2022

@feministepistemology Obviously you're free to argue that there's an absolute sense in which A may be more culpable even if we can only guess at that truth -- I'm personally inclined against that view because I think ethics should be (and inevitably is, in fact, if I'm laying my priors on the table) practical and socially engaged, but there are certainly views on ethics that don't have such a commitment.

2/2

Show threadJonas WittwerDec 29, 2022

@nowan

"I'm personally inclined against that view because I think ethics should be (and inevitably is, in fact, if I'm laying my priors on the table) practical and socially engaged, but there are certainly views on ethics that don't have such a commitment."

Could you elobarate this a little bit further?

Show threadJeremyDec 29, 2022
@feministepistemology I guess the way I'd elaborate without getting too too controversial is that I'm not convinced that abstract, universal ethical regimes have much purchase on the ethical lives of individuals -- at least not until they're instantiated in the ethical system of a particular culture. That would mean that moral claims as individuals grapple with them are social phenomena and are thus going to reflect the needs and interests of the culture they're a part of.
Show threadJonas WittwerDec 30, 2022

@nowan

Thanks.

Show threadMarylin DelgadoDec 29, 2022
@nowan @feministepistemology More precisely, I would say it's difficult to anticipate accurately how others' epistemic opportunities can have an ultimate effect on decisions and outcomes and how they can prevent or stimulate certain choices and acts. We assume someone like A would have more possibilities than B to act reasonably. Still, for that to happen, the convergence of many other considerations about A 1/
Show threadMarylin DelgadoDec 29, 2022
@nowan @feministepistemology and other aspects would have to occur. Another thing is that we should be interested in knowing, to the best of our understanding, what is pertinent before making decisions with moral implications, and be aware that, even so, sometimes there is no certainty about whether they may result as expected. 2/
Show threadHermit PhilosopherDec 28, 2022
@feministepistemology Think of it this way: although it is so that circumstances surrounding events presented for trial are taken into account and do impact on verdicts, most ppl prefer a system in which all are equal in eyes of the law. And, if the law should handle individuals in your example equally, why should society not do the same?
Show threadJonas WittwerDec 29, 2022

@hphilosopher

In Switzerland there is something which is called: ""mitigating circumstances". (Milderende Umstände)

So if somebody provoke you, you get in anger and lose controll and then hurt them you get not the same as if you do it in cold blood.

Do you not have something like this in your law system?

Show threadHermit PhilosopherJan 3, 2023
@feministepistemology We do, yes. And my previous comment took that into account, but values -which is what is in question in your initial example- are not “mitigating circumstances”. Is that your argument perhaps: that values are mitigating circumstances? If so, I’d disagree. Humbly, Hermit
Show threadMarylin DelgadoDec 29, 2022
@feministepistemology From an external point of view and the consideration of the consequences of their actions, there would be no difference between A and B regarding the attribution of blame/accountability. However, moral responsibility is a more complex matter. There is, in fact, a difference in access to ethical values and principles, but that A had better opportunities in that respect does not necessarily translate into ethical understanding resulting in epistemic
Show threadMarylin DelgadoDec 29, 2022
@feministepistemology incorporation of those values/principles to A's core beliefs and eventual decisions, nor moral growth, nor assuming respect as a standard attitude, among other things. There is always a possible asymmetry between our learning potential and proper assimilation of what is right or wrong, which explains moral failure in many cases. Fixing it requires a set of elements. Personal conditions, developing certain character traits, effort, and cultivating concern 2/
Show threadMarylin DelgadoDec 29, 2022
@feministepistemology are key factors, as well as a suitable form of life. An adequate ethical mentality or correcting deficient mindsets needs appropriate backgrounds, e.g. consistent frames of rationality and practical reasoning. Also some types of intervention in various levels. 3/
Show threadJonas WittwerDec 29, 2022

@marylindelgado

You ended with 3/

Is there missing something?