Paul GrahamIt's been interesting comparing Twitter and Mastodon. One of the big differences I notice is that the ratio of mockery to substantive replies is much lower on Mastodon. So if you're going to use both, maybe Mastodon is the place to try out novel ideas first.
Balaji V@paulg I wonder if it is due to the lesser number of folks here or the type of folks here (right now the barrier to entry to mastodon is a little high)
@Balaji For sure the people here on Mastodon are different. But I think Twitter's design also encourages a culture of mockery. Especially quote-tweeting.
Melvin@automatid @paulg 2nd person vs 3rd person. Talking in 3rd person is akin to talking behind someone's back.
Robotbeat@automatid @paulg @Balaji Big follower accounts use quote tweeting to sic their followers on someone, to argue on their behalf, but even worse than that as they’re entering a conversation in the middle, lacking earlier context.
Rant Ninja@Robotbeat @automatid @paulg @Balaji I can certainly see an argument that quote-posts should be limited to people with large followings or a public presence.
Being able to quote politicians or celebrities or others who use public goodwill to make a living seems like a no-brainer.
Using quoting to harass, intimidate or undermine people not in the public sphere is also completely unacceptable.
@rant @automatid @paulg @Balaji I think it’s interesting to separate people into those we’re allowed to harass and those we aren’t. By default, I wouldn’t think it’s workable, but I could be wrong.
@Robotbeat @automatid @paulg @Balaji look at history... Did our forbearers not mock the King and his Lords in our pursuit of freedom?
Do you never mock the rich & powerful?
Even Jesus wasn't so saintly as to avoid pointed criticism of the powerful. Criticism they, no doubt, considered unfair harassment.
So, I wonder where you draw the line?
@rant @automatid @paulg @Balaji Are the media fair game? Tucker Carlson? Pundits and journalists? One of the worst parts of Twitter started by harassing a video game journalist.
Mattias Eriksson 🚵♂️🦀
Nilan@automatid @paulg @Balaji well QTs are directed to followers, not a reply to the OP. So it's basically the difference between laughing "with" someone or laughing "at" someone.
carmenology@automatid @paulg @Balaji A reply is seen only by the OP and people who bother to open the tweet and scroll the replies. But quote tweeting lets people comment on the quoted tweet, which is then posted to their own followers, who, in turn, can do the same, and it's a pile-on.
Caleb Faruki@automatid @paulg @Balaji it lets you speak indirectly at someone rather than to them.
The effect is more psychological than practical. But quote tweets do limit your ability to see a threaded discussion. So it's not really meant for people to evolve. More meant for people to just dunk on each other without any sense of self improvement.
Vincent Stollenwerk@automatid @paulg @Balaji I'd guess a quote Tweet is mostly surfaced to your following, while the reply is mostly surfaced to the following of the Tweet author.
Chinhai Hour@automatid @paulg @Balaji quote tweet you publish on your own feed to your own followers with a snapshot of the original one. Perfect for mockery.
Abdullah Khalid@automatid @paulg @Balaji QTs move the discussion into a different segment of the social networks. If A tweets and B QTs, then the QT is not visible to As followers who don't follow B. But visible to all Bs followers. So B has a safer place to mock.
If B replies to A, then they have to deal with As followers.
Boaz Barak@paulg @Balaji This is a good point, though (as I said in another discussion) I do find QTs often useful in technical discussions.
Funnily enough, if the functionality was easily there,
I would have quote-tooted @paulg 's toot rather than replying to it, so I can highlight it rather than the whole thread.
Andrew Antes@paulg @Balaji I don’t think QT encourages mockery. QT on Mastodon would probably be benign until Mastodon reaches some critical mass of users, which would probably still be constrained to specific general-purpose instances. My intuition is that mockery is rewarded in proportion to the size and generality (centrality) of a social network.
Tae Kim
Russ@firstadopter @paulg @Balaji We got by on twitter for years without the current kind of quote-tweeting. I think the old fashioned QT/MT format we all used to use works ok in a pinch if you really want to quote tweet—and I think those kinds of quote tweets are generally more respectful/designed for good faith engagement in any event
NickKauf 
@paulg @Balaji very early Twitter wasn't a dunking game, instead you scored points more with "I was here" or "look at this thing" .. snark gradually grew somehow (snark kind of took over a lot of media at some point as a way to get more views) and then by the time the algorithmic feed came in the game had totally changed. Its hard having lived through a decade of it to remember how much the tone changed but since we all have our downloaded archives hopefully its interesting to go back a look
Michael Nielsen
Ryan Moulton@paulg @Balaji Quote tweeting was just a formalization of linking to tweets, screenshotting and subtweeting, that happened before QT. So, QTs formalized mockery too, and escalated it. Once Mastodon becomes big enough, it would be interesting to do sentiment analysis research on how QTs change mockery levels.
bona fide busta@paulg the fuckwit things you say encourages a culture of mocking you
Antonio Santos 🇵🇹
Gabi Purcaru@paulg to what extent do you think this is inherent to Mastodon vs. the novelty of the platform attracting mostly power users?
@gabipurcaru @paulg I think the huge rush of users in the last few days brought folks who were bringing Twitter-like conversation patterns. Overall, because it’s smaller and feels more private, there’s less mockery to impress your followers and more treating the other user like a real person.
Rob
Jorge Arango@paulg complementary hypotheses: 1) Mastodon’s UX challenges serve as a barrier keeping non-serious people out, and 2) fewer people = lower surface area for trolling. (I.e., it’s not worth their while.)
@jarango lmao why do you think people who don't care about social media enough to put up with horrendous UX are "non-serious"? what is it with right-wing nerds constantly preening in public in a way that should embarrass a high-schooler?
Kingsley Uyi Idehen@paulg,
Absolutely!
Absolutely!
Mike Smith@paulg I also think we have an opportunity to foster that here by committing to conversations in our post comments. Twitter felt like shouting into the void and seeing what echoed. Mastodon is a place for conversation, in my opinion, but it needs cultivating
Kat O’Brien@paulg that is interesting. Will be curious to see how each evolve. I’ve used Mastodon a bit more as seeing more familiar voices there. Did get quick derisive response here after sharing a taco pizza from my hometown last night, but that’s anecdotal.
Magnus Hedemark@paulg the whole quote tweeting thing got ugly though. It’s not lost on me that most of the dogpiling was coming from men on a post that a woman made here.
synlogic@paulg Eternal September hasnt happened here yet
JPZ13@paulg As of now, 100% of these replies are substantive, which is refreshing to see for social media
Toon@paulg I think it’s the norm for new platforms. Even Twitter at its early days was much better. Once the masses arrive, the quality of the conversation deteriorates
Arun Sivadasan@paulg Could it be a function of scale? As Mastodon increases its userbase and as it reaches a Twitter like audience, probably mockery will be more common?
Patrick Collison@paulg Is this just an early adopter effect? I don't remember much dunking in the early days of Twitter.
beecoterie@paulg there’s something to be said for a little friction in signing up. Like mining bitcoin… if the value of the commentary starts to drop will give new users a harder problem to solve before joining.
@paulg Mastodon is a dead platform with minimum exposure.
Sixshot@paulg I can somewhat vouch for that in a different way. I had actual replies to one of my post and it's quite refreshing, instead of the total silence or potential trolls.
BRB
Mike | Abundance Protocol@paulg Many times I use QT to 'frame' a tweet in a way that is relevant to my followers - but not necessarily relevant to the conversation (so not a reply). I think that's a useful feature, but also see how it can be abused.
It all starts with incentives anyway. Mocking/attacking others is how people build clout in a hyper polarized social network. If we want to reduce such behavior that requires redesign of incentives - at Mastodon there is no algorithm that drives ratings, so that's a start.
It all starts with incentives anyway. Mocking/attacking others is how people build clout in a hyper polarized social network. If we want to reduce such behavior that requires redesign of incentives - at Mastodon there is no algorithm that drives ratings, so that's a start.
@paulg If you are testing this idea for sharing on Twitter please don't! 😄 It is almost certainly a function of fewer people who are early adopters than intrinsic function of the network.
Gordon Mohr ꧁👀꧂@paulg kinda baffled Twitter has never tried concentric staged-release of tweets, from most-trusted correspondents gradually out to public - either on a pausable/cancellable schedule, or by prompted approval.
it'd work to both help authors to test/polish posts in safety – especially wrt inadvertent errors or confusing wording sympathetic readers could flag 1st – *and* as potential revenue model for Twitter & posters. eg: unpaid followers just get things 1h to 1d later.
Rudy Rigot 🇫🇷🇺🇸@paulg The community discourse here reminds me of the one on Twitter when I joined it, back in the late 00s.
Does it mean Mastodon will become troll country like Twitter someday? Maybe. I’ll be honest, I don’t exactly care. I feel like what matters is that it is awesome and effectively most valuable right now.
@paulg thx for putting the pointer to mas.to was trying to decide which server to join, you tipped it. not sure what difference it makes, tho. i'll learn.
@paulg do you think it will stay the same as Mastdon becomes more popular?
matthew_di@paulg It's interesting to see how many new followers you have on mastodon every day
Ash Arora@paulg I couldn’t agree more. Twitter has increasingly created an environment that is more mockery and insulting focussed, rather than educational and candid.
ts7n 
@paulg Agreed. I wonder if this has to do with people only switching over to Mastodon to continue hearing from someone they followed on Twitter. Mastodon appears to have way less discovery of new accounts than Twitter with the feed mainly prioritizing people you already follow.
For popular Twitter users who moved to Mastodon, it would make sense that only followers that were actually interested in your ideas and discussing them would be able to justify the high barrier of entry on Mastodon.