It appears, at least in my little archipelago of Mastodons, that there's a Great Quote-Tweet debate happening.

One person I respect asked pointedly to see data that proved QTs were abusive. Since I've been researching affordances of social media platforms I pulled some bits and bobs out of my hideous pile of papers and thought I'd share some insights with y'all about this question.

Cards on the table: I think QTs are a net negative. But nothing's ever simple.

First and foremost, there's just not a lot of good research on this specific question. The idea that QTs are a sluice of harassment is kind of an intuitive canard at this point--and with good reason. Getting a hostile QT *is* an express maglev to Paintown.

But in terms of establishing how frequently quote tweets lead there, there's only a bit of data on the ground. It's often a small part of research into other, larger issues.

Let's first consider "Echo chambers revisited: The (overwhelming) sharing of in-group politicians, pundits and media on Twitter" by Magdalena Wojcieszak and colleagues--Andreu Casas, Xudong Yu, Jonathan Nagler, and Joshua A. Tucker.

In short, it's what it says on the tin. They studied how Twitter users interact with posts by political elites on the platform to try and put some empirical handles on whether there are indeed "echo chambers" on the platform (spoiler: yes.)

Here's the relevant bit on quote tweeting, drawn from a large sample. Classifying how ordinary users responded to liberal and conservative elites' posts (journos, politicians, etc.).

If you suspected conservatives live in a tighter echo chamber, congrats, here's some data for you. But liberals' isn't that much larger.

And here we see that most QTs when directed at *out-group* members are negative. Overhwhelmingly so.

This may confirm our intuitions that QTs are often negative; Wojcieszak also argues that the ingroup sharing helps reinforce a certain amount of ideological conformity, even when positive.

But bear in mind the limitations. This is how us ordinary slobs interact with the powerful. Some might argue it's *good* that we give them a reality check, say.

This is the problem with this kind of data. Determining what it means is hard.

If you want to read the whole thing for yourself, check it out here! https://osf.io/xwc79/

Taking a broader view, the evidence we have is mixed. Alice Marwick's "Morally Motivated Networked Harassment as Normative Reinforcement" interviews numerous harassment victims and moderators; one cites quote-tweeting as an abuse vector.

In "Platformed Antisemitism on Twitter," Martin Reidl, Katie Joseff, and Samuel Wolley find evidence that QTs both amplified antisemitic content *and* recontextualised and neutered it.

The relevant section is here if you want to read for yourself. Basically, it's swings and roundabouts. In the Great Mastodon Debate, I've seen people take both sides here, emphasising one over the other.

But the truth is that this is always going to be hard to quantify. In doing this sort of content analysis on large data sets we're always in "is it a particle or is it a wave?" territory as we try to operationalise our variables--making them into things that can be counted.

The question of "what does this mean?" or "what should we value?" invariably gets into philosophical territory.

Which brings me to my next point--

There is every possibility that if we were to count up every QT and were able to objectively label them as harassment or neutral or positive in tone, we might find harassing QTs outnumbered. But then we get into quality over quantity.

What if the abusive QTs just matter more? What if they loom larger in the public consciousness? What if they generate more engagement? What if that engagement is itself largely abusive? (And this is the heart of the problem, by the way.)

The QT itself matters. But what *really* gets us is the second-order effects, which can be hard to accurately measure. This is the networked harassment Marwick describes--and she brilliantly covers how moral motivations often drive abuse--or the harassment campaigns *I've* studied. A quote tweet may flood with abuse in its comments, and it may also *inspire* more monadic abuse being hurled from all sides.

That's tough to measure, but it often overwhelms positive use cases in scale.

That doesn't mean the positive use cases don't exist, mind you. Nor that they're not important. *I* miss quote-tweeting a lot because of the way you could easily 'yes-and' someone worth amplifying and bring a constructive conversation to your followers.

Or as Reidl and colleagues observed, the ability to recontextualise hostile content and provide a robust counternarrative.

The question to answer is: is this worth all the downsides? And numbers can't answer that for you. Only you can.

Addendum: another qualitative point to consider is the psychological impact of certain kinds of QTs.

So, as a trans woman I find myself following a lot of other community members who frequently make a habit of QT-dunking on some bigot (indeed, I was just kvetching about this a little while ago on here). Recontextualisation is happening, an epistemic battle is being waged--and perhaps even won.

But constantly seeing the words of people who hate you? Not exactly ideal.

And that very issue kind of explodes the negative/positive QT binary. Because even a constructive or resistive use can have negative second-order effects. The panopticon of doomscrolling has many sources, after all.

So that's something else to consider, and something else that's harder to measure (a methodology using interviews would be a better approach here, for example).

@Quinnae_Moon thanks for your research. It seems that the QT is used for several different purposes and it has me wondering if the intent behind the QT should be explicit context: criticism, agreement, clarification, etc.
@benjotron @Quinnae_Moon
My observation is that QT is used when you want to talk about someone, not to them.
That’s not necessarily negative, but often it is.
@BenAveling @benjotron This is a *very* apt way of putting it.
@Quinnae_Moon @BenAveling @benjotron
I really wanted to QT this (excellent — thanks for it) thread, summarizing what I took away from it. It's not clear what other method could accomplish that.

@shriramk

I'm no expert, but you couldn't you share your thoughts on this thread (or any other interesting post) as a reply to the author and then boost your own reply?

@SoNotNic @shriramk so here's my challenge. I have no idea what the thread means. But this is because i am clueless.

@happyday

😄 There is quite a bit of newbie advising newbie happening in general on Mastodon and sometimes the result is just cluelessness multiplied.

But I am loving my Mastodon experience, and I am so glad that Twitter's imminent collapse alerted me to its existence, even if I'm still stumbling around in the dark quite a bit.

@SoNotNic I really like the decentralized servers. I assume this means our city could set up a server and decide on the security as well as perhaps other civics aspects? It would be great if the city's IT managed the server instead of one company with mega-VCs just itching for their payout at any cost....

@SoNotNic @shriramk

My worry with that is that a response in the middle of a thread would be seen out of context, and

a. not all readers would click thru to figure out what I'm talking about, or

b. Someone would jump in the middle of a discussion without going back to the beginning to see what the context is.

I don't personally have a problem with QTs. They can be used to amplify both good things AND horrible things. Boosting something without context, IMHO, implies unintended endorsement (which is why I used to see so many bios on the Hellsite have a disclaimer: RTs do not equal endorsement). But anything can be abused.

@timekiller_s

I can see that.

I suppose one could start off with "I am boosting this because ..." which would put the comment in context and have an added bonus of letting the original author know why you appreciate (or disagree with) their thoughts.

But I recognize that is not the same thing.

(I don't have an opinion on quote tweets, but I have found the conversations interesting and appreciate all the thoughtful people having the conversation.)

@shriramk @Quinnae_Moon @BenAveling @benjotron
Boost the article and become part of the discussion here.

@Liga @Quinnae_Moon @BenAveling @benjotron
There are many situations where that is the right response, and that is what I have done (on Twitter). There are times when that is not the most appropriate thing to do.

For every pat response of "just do X" there are uses for which that is not quite the right model. That doesn't mean QT is the right thing, either. Just that there are N actual operations and we're shoehorning them into K available ones with K << N. K+1 *can* be a bit better than K.

@shriramk @Quinnae_Moon @BenAveling @benjotron
I get that, here comes the but, Eugen made this choice deliberately, the community at large accepted and have been living with it. Trying to force Mastodon into becoming something else isn't right. New people should keep in mind where they are.

@Liga @Quinnae_Moon @BenAveling @benjotron
I literally said, in another reply, that I'm not here to argue that Mastodon should add QT: this isn't Twitter, it's a different site.

BUT, is it not okay to use SM to discuss designs of systems, especially the design of that SM itself? It's not like I'm @-ing Eugen directly and harassing him about it.

@shriramk @Quinnae_Moon @BenAveling @benjotron
Sorry I misread you. I apologize for that.
I'm a person who values dignity. To have a written thought of mine stolen and used without my knowledge or consent, bothers me. The fact that someone feels their wants are more important, or that my position inconveniences them, really bothers me.

@Liga @Quinnae_Moon @BenAveling @benjotron
Appreciate the apology.

As an academic, I care deeply about the authorship of ideas. I guess I simply don't view QT as theft; rather, entirely the contrary. Indeed, forcing people to copy screenshots of toots as an alternative to QTs feels much more like "theft".

@shriramk @Quinnae_Moon @BenAveling @benjotron
Kinda like saying a lock on the door will encourage thieves to break a window to get in? Discouraging folks for that behavior would be best.
@shriramk @Quinnae_Moon @Liga @benjotron
You can copy and paste a link to a toot.
@Liga @shriramk @Quinnae_Moon @BenAveling @benjotron why is quoting something you posted in public theft?
@xian @shriramk @Quinnae_Moon @BenAveling @benjotron
If you take something without the owners permission it's a manner of theft.
@Liga how is quotation of public utterance in any sense taking
@xian
Why bother doing that? What's the end goal. You could take part in the conversation with the person. Should we all stay quiet so people don't come after us because someone pulled something out of context?

@Liga @xian
There are many ways in which people use QT. Here's a there where I discuss it in more detail:

https://mastodon.social/@shriramk/109577821301804258

@Liga who are you to determine what others do? you are not making a coherent case but rather projecting and assuming too much.
@xian interesting.
Let me repeat, I don't think "stealing" or appropriating posts or images is acceptable. If you take something without the owners knowledge or permission you are stealing.
You do not have to agree.

@Liga

Boring, repetitive, and unconvincing,

Let me repeat. I don’t think making up your own meanings for words is relevant.

Quotation is not stealing, with or without square quotes.

I don’t care if you acknowledge this reality or not.

@xian oh I didn't realize I was dealing with a jerk
@Quinnae_Moon @BenAveling @benjotron
I had some thought experiments on this subject:
- Can a QT be made implicitly positive by also needing to be a favorite? (Or would that just change the meaning of 'Favorite')
- Can a QT be made contingent only on the original author's consent?
- Can QTs be linked back to the original toot in a way that allows the original author to retract consent?
@Quinnae_Moon @BenAveling @benjotron But he's totally right. Especially, because if you answer a toot, this reply will reach your followers (just as your thread reached me) and they can read the whole thing, if they want. That's enough.

@BenAveling @benjotron @Quinnae_Moon

In my experience when such behavior becomes prevalent the nature of a community changes for the worse.

People stop trusting each other and when that's gone it usually doesn't return.

@BenAveling @benjotron @Quinnae_Moon That's very true – a few times on Twitter I replied to someone who quote tweeted me and they weren't happy about it, which boiled down to that "talking about you, not to you" dynamic
@BenAveling @benjotron @Quinnae_Moon
Having seen Twitter and Mastodon for 5 years now in parallel, I'd say that this is a major contributing factor for healthier discussion. Mastodon does make it deliberately easier to talk _with_ people, by making it a bit harder to talk _about_ people.
But still, this is anecdotical evidence at best. To analyze it better, it might help to look at how discussion on twitter changed in 2015, when QT was introduced there. (I'd say it degenerated at this point.)

@BenAveling @benjotron @Quinnae_Moon

This is true. The thing is, giving a reply to someone you don’t know personally, and who most definitely not are following you, isn’t as effective as quoting that person for your own followers.

Personally I have only ever used quoting to highlight “look, this is what I’ve been saying all along, and apparently the experts agree on that it is happening” and thus spreading the word of the expert-not-me to my followers. I see that as a good thing.

It should be noted I don’t have a horse in this race though, all my Fediverse services (which then are not Mastodon) already have quoting implemented perfectly.

@BenAveling @benjotron @Quinnae_Moon is there something inherent in how qt works thats causes that difference? Is it due to the display format? The way timelines and notifications work?

Could required qt approval by the quoted account make it better?

Maybe every account could have a permission — qt me always, qt me if you ask my permission each time and are allowed to dm me, qt not allowed.

@BenAveling @benjotron @Quinnae_Moon That matches my experience as a QTer, with a slant toward "talk about what they posted," often with the quotee not someone who knows me personally. It's microblogging, after all. I never thought just pointing to someone else's piece was sufficient. A post is asking for others' attention; I feel an obligation to say why.

@BenAveling @benjotron @Quinnae_Moon

I think the effectiveness of the QT was destroyed when they started indexing them from the original tweet. For a long time, you could use it as a way of severing the conversation and just having a separate conversation about a topic.

But when you started being able to get an enumeration of all the QT's about a tweet, then the people who were supporters of the original tweet could easily find and go harass the people trying to have their own discussion.

I think any attempt to assess the goodness or badness of this conversational device needs separate analysis of the before or after of the decision to show the list of quote tweets under an original tweet.

@BenAveling @benjotron @Quinnae_Moon yes. Exactly.🙏I am worried that as this community grows, negative will replay itself again. In my heart, I believe we are so much better then that. Let’s not repeat. Let’s learn from it. ☺️🙏
@BenAveling @benjotron @Quinnae_Moon
This seems a useful view and make it easier to see why QT can lead to abuse.
I think having barriers for things that can pose dangers can be good. Like the alarms that remind you to wear your seatbelt. You can do it, but current protocols make it hard to do thoughtlessly.
Negative QTs feed into a way of thinking that diagnosing what is a problem helps solve it. Sometimes that’s true, but very often it’s not.

@BenAveling @benjotron @Quinnae_Moon I've heard "Quote-tweets mostly allow talking ABOUT someone instead of TO them" over & over.

That's pithy but not what people object to. The platform fully supports talking about someone endlessly. You can mock them "secretly" on your feed or harass them privately in direct comments.

So, people seem sensitive to _hearing_ what people post about them elsewhere. Let's put controls on that visibility, the real issue.

@PixelJones @benjotron @Quinnae_Moon

It's about adding 'friction'.

Masto makes QT-like effects possible but actively discouraged, vs Twitter, where they are actively encouraged.

And that changes the conversation. Instead of pile-on QTs being easy and common, as on Twitter, anyone on Mastodon is on notice that if they do QT, then they really ought to be able to justify what they're doing.

@BenAveling @benjotron @Quinnae_Moon
But going w/ the artificial friction of making good faith quote-tweeting hard is lazy & dumb. Why not address the trolling behavior directly? (I'm a developer so can think of a bunch of ways)

Just one: Allow the original poster to turn off (or suppress notification about) quote-tweeting on their feed or on a post-by-post basis. This would be kind of a reverse content warning saying "No dunking on this post." #QT