Jen SimmonsDec 16, 2022

Every news outlet should stand up a Mastondon instance for their reporters & staff.

It’ll be great to see [email protected] or whatever domain they want to use.

Built in verification. Every reporter for the Washington Post on a washpo domain. Every reporter for the New York Times on an NYTimes domain. Etc, etc.

Plus the “local” feed for each instance becomes a feed of all the posts from that institution mixed together — providing extra discovery.

Show threadJake Jarvis Dec 16, 2022
@jensimmons one thousand percent! and account migration easily solves the whole "what about if/when they get a different job?" predicament.
Show threadJake OuelletteDec 16, 2022
@jake @jensimmons I like this, though I am a little worried that (1) a company wouldn't allow your redirect if they fire you (2) what if they contract to multiple places and/or want to pitch their substack from their "official" account?
Show threadPusher Of Pixels (old account)

@Jakeout @jake @jensimmons reputable places won't do that.

There are issues with a federated system that will be hiccups, compared with a seamless single silo, no argument there.

But it really is a pretty well thought out system I think. Built in flexibility on many fronts.

And as for accounts, people had multiple Twitter accounts, no different here

Dec 16, 2022 at 4:20amWeb
Show threadPamDec 16, 2022
@pixelpusher220 @Jakeout @jake @jensimmons hm, twitter was somewhat reputable and now, not. Perhaps normalize posting on multiple instances at once?
Show threadJake OuelletteDec 16, 2022
@chipchirp @pixelpusher220 it'd be nice if the user journey of mastodon had some built in affordances for this, follow an account whose identity is "administered" by another account, potentially off-instance. This would enable backups for if an instance went away, too
Show threadAntonio PiccolboniDec 16, 2022
@Jakeout @chipchirp @pixelpusher220 You may be interested in the new project Dorsey is pushing, bluesky. It seems to focus very much on account portability and permanence. Still on the drawing board though.
Show threadPusher Of Pixels (old account)Dec 16, 2022

@piccolbo @Jakeout @chipchirp

Another private silo isn't the correct answer.

Federated, distributed is the solution. Literally what email is, but for social media

Show threadAntonio PiccolboniDec 16, 2022
@pixelpusher220 @Jakeout @chipchirp If you are talking about bluesky, it's a protocol like mastodon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluesky_(protocol) I am not endorsing it, just something to watch that could address concerns about portability of accounts.
Bluesky (protocol) - Wikipedia

Show threadPusher Of Pixels (old account)Dec 16, 2022

@piccolbo @Jakeout @chipchirp ah, interesting, the posts I'd seen described it as a site /Twitter competitor.

Glad to see the description you linked! Interoperable with ActivityPub is a good goal. Tho I'm guessing Elmo isn't going to make Twitter interoperate now lol.

Show threadPamDec 16, 2022
@pixelpusher220 @piccolbo @Jakeout operable might be aspirational #twitter_exodus
Show threadSweetsunrayDec 16, 2022
@pixelpusher220 @piccolbo @Jakeout @chipchirp I suspect Dorsey is working on this protocol to get rid of cookies and thereby circumvent the EU’s gdpr to collect data
Show threadPamDec 16, 2022
@pixelpusher220 @piccolbo @Jakeout Im sure this is already a whole Thing and Im late to rhe game but surely people can have a private instance like a blog where they can crosspost to for their own storage? Like you have a ✨personal✨ thing you post to, but sadly that increases the burden (cost/setup) on the average user, so its only worthwhile for journos maybe?
Show threadPusher Of Pixels (old account)Dec 16, 2022

@chipchirp @piccolbo @Jakeout yes that's very possible. By 'private' in this case I mean a private company run site. You aren't allowed to run your own.

A user could have a business account and a personal account on most any instance they want, like email. Or they could run their own instance too but as you note that's a bit more work.

Show threadShriram KrishnamurthiDec 17, 2022
@chipchirp @pixelpusher220 @piccolbo @Jakeout I don't think it's quite that simple. When you set up a server, it appears you are also legally a social medium and have to deal with takedown notices, etc. There appears to be a whole legal side (in the US); someone who seemed to know suggested you create an LLC, etc. So it seems non-trivial.
Show threadPusher Of Pixels (old account)Dec 17, 2022

@shriramk @chipchirp @piccolbo @Jakeout

Indeed. It's like email was in the beginning, lots of small independent servers and a very less threatening legal landscape.

but it's also not like email in that, as you note, there is 'hosted' information subject to legal takedown notices, etc.

Non-trivial, but also, not at all insurmountable.

Show threadShriram KrishnamurthiDec 17, 2022
@pixelpusher220 @chipchirp @piccolbo @Jakeout Obviously surmountable with enough time, effort, money, and risk endurance, but the question here was about *individuals* running instances. A service for individuals can't be just push-button automation of software and serving, but has to also be of *legal and corporate support*. Don't see very many cloud providers getting into that.
Show threadPusher Of Pixels (old account)Dec 17, 2022

@shriramk @chipchirp @piccolbo @Jakeout
Yep agreed, it's something to deal with. I suspect there will be consolidation into larger instance providers, like there was with email over time.

I really do feel like this is the same thing with very early email providers...but with the added complexity of shared/hosted info and the far more litigious environment of the modern era.

One additional factor is there isn't a central place to file those lawsuits either. It's 1000s of small disperse ones

Show threadPamDec 17, 2022
@pixelpusher220 @shriramk @piccolbo @Jakeout surely theres a legal mechanism to group certain lawsuits together for the purposes of preventing the legal system from getting spammed? Ugh, legal Twitter is lagging WAY behind hacker Twitter. Hell even most trader Twitter has moved on (to blogs and forums, the weirdos). That or I need to start following hashtags that are catnip to legal nerds and just follow. Here, I’ll try this bit of jargon to see if any bite: #Amicuscuriae
Show threadhipopenerDec 18, 2022
@chipchirp @piccolbo @shriramk @Jakeout @pixelpusher220 I bit
Show threadbossandnova 🔺Dec 16, 2022
@piccolbo @chipchirp @pixelpusher220 @Jakeout Why not both, like email?
Show threadPusher Of Pixels (old account)Dec 16, 2022
@bossandnova @piccolbo @chipchirp @Jakeout you can't be both federated/distributed and a private silo.
Show threadPamDec 16, 2022
@pixelpusher220 @bossandnova @piccolbo @Jakeout no distributed blogs?
Show threadPusher Of Pixels (old account)Dec 16, 2022

@chipchirp @bossandnova @piccolbo @Jakeout a blog is a website which is federated and distributed via the public/open HTTP protocol.

Whether you make your own website public or private is a separate consideration to my thinking.

Show threadPamDec 16, 2022

@pixelpusher220 @bossandnova @piccolbo @Jakeout ok i think I understand, i am having a dopey start to my day and I suppose the gist of what id like to see is a variety of redundant archival systems available to users that should be no more sophisticated to the user than repeating what was shared and saving it away on a site they own or an account on another service. I dont want a little insance tyrant with all the hubris of the HOA busybody ruining accounts and causing people to lose stuff they posted ij the past, (or worse, an insecure dork who thinks drip means carrying a sink around, and that free speech is about suspending anyone who says boo about him)

Bah im almost out of coffee creamer, today is feeling like a half day….

Show threadPusher Of Pixels (old account)Dec 16, 2022

@chipchirp @bossandnova @piccolbo @Jakeout very valid concerns.

Saving your content is always something that you likely need to be proactive about if you need to ensure it's preserved.

But you can change instances pretty easily and it mostly automatically updates your followers to your new address.

If you stick with medium or larger instances you'll likely not run into the tyrant HOA leader issue.

/1

Show threadPusher Of Pixels (old account)Dec 16, 2022

@chipchirp @bossandnova @piccolbo @Jakeout posts are a trickier issue. Links to posts would break if they moved servers (like a news article reference).

Not sure what the solution might be

/2x

Show threadAntonio PiccolboniDec 16, 2022
@pixelpusher220 @chipchirp @bossandnova @Jakeout For web link durability, web archive links. That's what wikipedia does and even if it is entrusting another crazy millionaire with your data, they have a mission and an excellent track record. Plus not only they avoid 404s, but they keep the content frozen. Accepted in court as evidence.
Show threadPusher Of Pixels (old account)Dec 16, 2022

@piccolbo @chipchirp @bossandnova @Jakeout one issue is that it's dependent on 3rd parties to use the perm links.

But in this case it's moving the source from one server to another along with replies and all the other stuff too.

Not sure if your old instance keeps your posts as readonly or not. Smaller instances might be possible but for larger ones probably too much to handle.

Basically if you need it saved, be proactive!

Show threadE. ChangDec 19, 2022
@chipchirp @pixelpusher220 @bossandnova @piccolbo @Jakeout This is why I started using an app that takes text and markdown input and then pushes it out to whatever services I designate, including my own local archive. It doesn't handle comment threads, but it saves me a record of any content that originates with me.
Show threadAntonio PiccolboniDec 20, 2022
@knottedthreads @chipchirp @pixelpusher220 @bossandnova @Jakeout What is the name of that app?
Show threadE. ChangDec 20, 2022
@piccolbo @chipchirp @pixelpusher220 @bossandnova @Jakeout Drafts, which is only available for Apple operating systems. I am unsure if there is an Android equivalent.
Show threadAntonio PiccolboniDec 20, 2022
@knottedthreads
I see and then you have an integration with a Mastodon app?
Show threadE. ChangDec 21, 2022
@piccolbo Not an app, but just via the web. Drafts works via "actions" that work through service APIs. For Mastodon, one specifies the instance URL and one's username in the script, and then the first time one mounts the action, it authorizes in the same way that any Mastodon app authorizes. Drafts then stores the given credentials and sends content to the same account whenever the action is run.
Show threadKristanDec 16, 2022
@piccolbo @Jakeout @chipchirp @pixelpusher220 I’m also very interested in bluesky. The lack of a centralized feed feels limiting to me here. I’m still learning to navigate around though😇
Show threadAntonio PiccolboniDec 16, 2022
@KlinLA @Jakeout @chipchirp @pixelpusher220 The lack of a centralized feed can be alleviated with relays, see https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/pull/7998 But it's left to admins whether they want to pull from relays, and which ones. But if you are an admin, you have the option.
Add federation relay support by Gargron · Pull Request #7998 · mastodon/mastodon

Fix #7399 What? Federation relays are intermediaries between Mastodon servers. A Mastodon server can subscribe to a relay and publish all public posts to it, receiving all public posts it receives ...

GitHub
Show threadKristanDec 16, 2022
@piccolbo @Jakeout @chipchirp @pixelpusher220 good to know! I’ll check out the link- I realize there is a learning curve. I remember trying to figure out how to get people to talk to me on the other site many years ago🙃
Show threadPusher Of Pixels (old account)Dec 16, 2022

@KlinLA @piccolbo @Jakeout @chipchirp hashtags and boosts/follows are how you build your own feed.

Definitely different than having an algorithm build it for you.

Show threadKristanDec 16, 2022
@pixelpusher220 @piccolbo @Jakeout @chipchirp Yes! I am open and grateful for all tips! 😇
Show threadAlexLapinsDec 17, 2022
@Jakeout @chipchirp @pixelpusher220 That could be a pro and a con. If part of what you're being paid for is social media posting, the ability to migrate the account elsewhere is a bad thing (you've given exclusive distribution rights to another party, so can't post it yourself). I like the administered idea, though, particularly if the indicator led you to that account. #identity seems a little tricky on mastodon, since it's tied to dns ownership, and I haven't seen mention of a single instance being able to host multiple domains on the same instance. Not even sure what that would look like.
Show thread(((Klefstadmyr)))Dec 16, 2022
@pixelpusher220 @Jakeout @jake @jensimmons AND you can have a private account with the same name on another server.
Show threadJohn Bell 🇺🇦🇪🇺🔸🕷️🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿Dec 16, 2022
@pixelpusher220 @jensimmons @Jakeout @jake reputable places have their own website, so having a local instance is simply an extension of that
Show threadPusher Of Pixels (old account)Dec 16, 2022

@johngbell95 @jensimmons @Jakeout @jake exactly!

Just amazing how easily we all just fell into private silos of info control, vs your own personal feed curated by yourself

Show threadWithoutAPaddleDec 16, 2022
@jake @Jakeout @pixelpusher220 @jensimmons for print it might work. They aren’t making money anyway
Show threadPusher Of Pixels (old account)Dec 16, 2022

@RedCanoe @jake @Jakeout @jensimmons

Oh snap!

Show threadWill PalmerDec 20, 2022
@pixelpusher220 @Jakeout @jake @jensimmons if anyone ever says "reputable people won't do that" it is a guarantee that there are serious issues on the protocol level.
Show threadPusher Of Pixels (old account)Dec 20, 2022

@wpalmer @Jakeout @jake @jensimmons

Same goes for email.

Comms protocols don't deal with system mgmt issues.

Show threadWill PalmerDec 20, 2022
@pixelpusher220 @Jakeout @jake @jensimmons good protocols leave room for extensions that others can use to fill gaps. I suppose the Mastodon equivalent would be the "metadata slots". One could theoretically fill those with a PGP key ID, but those are traditionally tied to email, which is these-days considered private.
Show threadPusher Of Pixels (old account)Dec 20, 2022

@wpalmer @Jakeout @jake @jensimmons

How would that prevent a bad acting instance host from behaving badly?

Show threadWill PalmerDec 20, 2022
@pixelpusher220 @Jakeout @jake @jensimmons it would allow opportunity for identity verification means to be distributed beforehand through a well-known location, meaning that it could be more-readily known beforehand. In the event of sudden dismissal / lock-out, others may already have what amounts to a "migration token" available to them. Of course, bad actors could update the key id after the fact, but this would not erase history.
Show threadWill PalmerDec 20, 2022
@pixelpusher220 @Jakeout @jake @jensimmons a shorter way of saying that would be: in summary, not very well, which is among the reasons why I think that mastodon needs serious work around identity management, with identity migration being a prime example of an important use-case.
Show threadPusher Of Pixels (old account)Dec 20, 2022

@wpalmer @Jakeout @jake @jensimmons

I think your conflating separate issues. There's behavioral issues you aren't going to solve and some technical things that would be useful as well.

The issue here was the former, and protocols don't solve that. They can attempt to mitigate it, but it's a hammer driving a screw.

Show threadWill PalmerDec 20, 2022
@pixelpusher220 @Jakeout @jake @jensimmons there are behavioural issues, but if there is no protocol-level support for a good solution, then being a bad-actor becomes the default. Good protocols can make it so that good behaviour is easy to the extent that bad behaviour looks suspicious.