Centralisation of communications media is an extremely powerful force.

The typical remediation for centralization is regulated public utilities is breaking up a monopoly into a cartel of 3-5 local monopolies.

Also not great.

We are participating here at a very rare occurrence of decentralisation.

For everyone who thinks this is important for our lives and for the world, it is incumbent on all of us to build structures now that hold this ground as the federation grows.

#cosocialca

I highly recommend the excellent book "The Master Switch" by Tim Wu.

It details the initial decentralization, followed by centralization and monopoly, of various media from telegrams to film, radio, tv, telephones, cable TV, and the Internet.

It's a fascinating read, and well worth your time.

One of the big mistakes people make, over and over again, is relying on technological determinism.

That is, thinking the architecture of the technology will preserve the topology of the network.

Mastodon is Open Source. It's built with open standards.

This is necessary but not sufficient to keep the network decentralized.

We're going to need social and legal structures, plus cultural norms, that counterbalance Metcalfe's law, which pushes the network towards centralization.

@evan I am not sure. Mail for example converged to a handful of big providers and a long tail of smaller ones.
Is not Mastodon heading is this direction?
@ks yes, unless we put in place social and cultural mechanisms to avoid it
@evan @ks I think you are exactly right about where this ends up (large, regulated players) in the absence of some counteracting forces - but “social and cultural mechanisms” seems incredibly vague. Is there any precedent that shows communities can self-organize out of network effects rather than fall prey to them?
@markallerton @ks not that I know of. :(
@markallerton @ks let me flip it: what non-technical things would you do to keep things decentralized?

@evan @markallerton @ks

I do agree that centralization is coming to the fediverse, but not for any of the reasons that most people on here think. That centralization is coming for the exact same reasons that centralization came to email, and it's a reason that many folks that would like things to stay decentralised keep ignoring.

And that is user safety.

A lot of Mastodon fans keep pretending that Mastodon is inclusive. It's not. But it could be.

@evan @markallerton @ks

As a Black person, simply signing up for a Mastodon account can expose you to vile racist slurs and threats of violence. Most Mastodon users are one popular toot away from discovering that their instance mods are either unwilling or completely unprepared to deal with this.

Because a centralized whitelist was abused in a cynical attack years ago, the fediverse kinda gave up on that idea, and has been very resistant to it ever since.

@evan @markallerton @ks

It's entirely possible for decentralized instances to provide safety, but most don't/won't. I'm super happy with hachyderm.io for example. ♥️👍🏿

But a larger company is going to integrate with the fediverse, and fulfill the most basic user feature request: "As a user of your product, I would like to know that signing up will not expose me to death threats from nazis" 🤷🏿‍♂️

Then more new users are going to flow there.

@evan @markallerton @ks

The best thing to do to "counter" this coming centralization is super easy to do, but from my short time observing here, it won't happen:

1. There should be stricter criteria for an instance being listed on "join Mastodon." Insufficient moderation gets you de-listed. Handle cynical false reports.

2. It should be easier for a new admin to just check a box and opt-in to a whitelisted federation that excludes the worst instances.

@mekkaokereke I agree. I think JM is a great structure for making default policy for the network. Requiring active moderation and use of shared allow/deny lists is a great criterion for entry.

I also dislike a shared allowlist. It shuts down growth at a time when we need to be reaching more people than ever.

There are 12000 Mastodon sites up, according to some estimates. There are 150 sites on the Rapidblock list. I think a blocklist makes more sense here.

@evan @mekkaokereke instances.social is implicitly an allowlist, and 💯 agreed with Mekka that the group running that needs to do a better job at ensuring a minimum set of criteria.

(But also agree that a universal allowlist would be complicated, but maybe worthwhile? Long term, allowing small instances, like "we've seen exactly one user here? Fine." but having alerting for new instances with large numbers of users seems an important shared infrastructure.)

@evan @mekkaokereke one possibly relevant thought here: while requiring government ID for individual users or domain names seems fraught, having some kind of identification and verification requirement for instance administrators to get their instance on a public allowlist seems *totally reasonable* to me.

Speaking for myself, I would happily do this for any personal, business, or community instances that I might ever run.

@blaine @evan @mekkaokereke *Holy hell* is this ever a bad idea; legitimize the state's attempt to colonize personal identity, exclude people who can't get state-issued ID or whose state-issued ID mismatches them in a way they don't want to reveal, create a trust problem handling personal data *and all in the service of building a mechanism to systematically exclude independent instances and destroy a free network in favor of a permissioned one*

@andrea @evan @mekkaokereke I definitely didn't and wouldn't suggest applying this to personal identity. That would, as you say, be a terrible idea.

The flipside is that I have a lot of empathy for people who face real threats of violence in unmoderated spaces. I refuse to keep viable options categorically off the table in order to protect e.g. white hacker dudes' ability to be "free."

@blaine @evan @mekkaokereke Just to instance admin identity, which is a pretty clear announcement you consider anyone who wants to run their own instance expendable. I'd be one of the people facing real threats of violence telling you, oh white perhaps-hacker dude, that leaning on state-issued IDs and forcing centralization is fucking oppressive.

@andrea @evan @mekkaokereke totally agreed on centralization. I would be very sad to see something like this as mandatory; but also:

I've heard repeatedly from PoC this week that the fediverse isn't doing enough. Those voices need to be taken seriously.

Also, I worry that if we don't do *something* then one of two things happens: another monopoly forms *or* top-down government regulation comes to "solve' the problem.

@andrea @evan @mekkaokereke I'll admit to having done a quick check to make sure I wasn't talking to a free-speech absolutist libertarian. I used to know Appelb*um, too, and he was always a big supporter of avoiding the state at all costs, as it turns out for unsurprising reasons. That's the sort of thing that makes me hesitate to abandon viable avenues for accountability in the name of "freedom from the state."
@blaine @evan @mekkaokereke Heh, I had him as a co-worker for five years. It was not a pleasant experience.
@andrea @evan @mekkaokereke first time I met him he was telling activists their passwords that he'd sniffed off wifi at an activist tech camp, the last time I saw him was at 25C3 or something and he was all "Come watch my talk! We're going to bring down the whole house of cards!"; reader, he did not bring down the whole house of cards. Every interaction in-between was gross. 😢 Don't envy your five years. 🤮

@blaine @evan @mekkaokereke LOL, here he is using getting someone to drink a roofie as a "fictional example" at DEFCON 10; he's always been like that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-GlWRGDeu0&t=2339s

Total bullshit artist too; one of the last interactions I ever had with him involved him trying to get me to explain how RSA works, and then the bare basics of finite group theory, as he was *started a crypto PhD he allegedly did the work for*

DEF CON 10 - Error - Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP)

YouTube
@andrea @evan @mekkaokereke lol-without-laughing. he once told my ex "I like you ... in a non-sexual way! I don't think that's ever happened before!" 🤮
@blaine @evan @mekkaokereke I promise to not blow your brain bleach budget for the next decade by posting the sawzall dildo photo
@andrea @evan @mekkaokereke thanks for that. 😂 That last video reminded me of his nyotaimori story (for the record, I had to look that word up 😅).
@blaine @evan @mekkaokereke More seriously, having had an up-close view of his involvement with the Snowden documents, including some pre-publication briefings, there were real consequences and quite possibly prices we are still paying to the fact that no one with genuine technical expertise ever got full access
@blaine @evan @mekkaokereke @blaine @evan @mekkaokereke Yeah,I've seen a bunch of those too, and agreed, at least on needing to do something - good fucking luck to the state regulating the server currently sitting in my living room that I'll move around as I please - as well as Mastodon's deeply established CW-all-the-things culture being mentioned at least as much as more overt abuse from the fringes. The only thing any drive toward centralization achieves is make..
@blaine @evan @mekkaokereke ...cultures more conservative (in the small-c Burkean sense) and close the exits. I pledge to resist such things unto my last breath.

@andrea @evan @mekkaokereke I don't disagree!

*anguished scrunchy face*

But I also want a space for mass culture AND BIPoC/marginalized people, so that we're not *all* forced into fucking malls, but online. AND I want these spaces to be safe.

Sadly, I don't think the answers are easy. One thing I feel confident about, though, is that the "normcore" instances.social could probably safely not include unmoderated / accountable spaces. 🤷

@blaine @evan @mekkaokereke That slide from "unmoderated" to "accountability" (to this centralized state-ID-loving hell-process) is quite a conflation

@andrea @evan @mekkaokereke I mean, I guess – I would eagerly welcome alternatives; I do think it's a bit of a moot point given GDPR, but yeah, if there were a relatively simple (re: implementable) approach that achieved the goals of keeping people feeling safe, or better, actually keeping them safe, 

But to be clear, I don't make the rules, let alone think I have the answers. Just trying to have an open conversation about this stuff, in case there's an opportunity to make things better.

@blaine @evan @mekkaokereke Oh, we'll end up with some sort of automated instance reputation system at some point - we're all kind of living in a security-through-obscurity world before someone actually builds good automated tooling for pop-up disposable instances and uses it/makes it available for use to Nazis and Kiwifarmers and the like
@blaine @evan @mekkaokereke But I do not think hard whitelisting is the way and will oppose anything hostile to user or instance operator privacy or to small/single-user instances
@blaine @evan @mekkaokereke Any reputation system has a bootstrapping problem with how new instances acquire it, of course - it seems pretty important for there to be multiple paths in; the problem is much easier if restricted to noticing whether something that's been operating a while tends to be a source of fuckery.
@andrea @evan @mekkaokereke yeah, you're not wrong. One thing I will give twitter-between-2020-and-2022 is that they did an alright job of taking trust/safety people seriously and seemed to have managed to implement good technology to put things to action. I *really* hope we (collectively) can do that here *quickly*, before we lose (either to governments or corporations or both).
@blaine @evan @mekkaokereke Eh, they thwacked some Nazis and also enabled a *whole lot* of malicious reporting. Better than leaving it as it had been before, but at the price of basically making all but the tamest non-bluecheck accounts have a finite life expectancy, and particularly so for anyone who tends to get targeted by Nazis. The list of 5,000 antifa accounts was definitely not their first time coordinating that stuff off-site.