Dan HonNov 25, 2022

Please understand that some of us are both optimistic and see wonderful potential here *and* don't want the same or similar mistakes to be made again.

There's so much experience to be drawn on, and it feels like excitement and optimism in technical protocols is pushing aside lessons. Everyone wants a better social network. There are real concerns.

Show threadDan HonNov 25, 2022
For over 30 years we've seen the patterns and skills required when an individual starts an online community *regardless of protocol or software* and there are a bunch of invariants that have *nothing* to do with the skill of "administering and operating a software service". Community management is different from content moderation is different from system administration and we're *lucky* whenever a person or group happens to be good enough at all three.
Show threadDan HonNov 25, 2022

The trite version of this is: Being an instance admin/starting one is much more for life than your regular co-opted pagan holiday now associated with a dominant global soft drink brand.

And the cost is if you get it wrong -- the different community management and content moderation parts -- then we collectively lose trust. Protocols won't ever fix that. They might make good management and moderation *easier* through tools, but they'll always be human decisions.

Show threadDan HonNov 25, 2022
Like my friend @fraying said, *federation doesn't fix the problems of community management and moderation*, but it is certainly *is* a tool. It is also an exceedingly blunt one. And like many tools because it is powerful, it can also make it easy to ignore or set aside the depth, context and difficulty of decisions.
Show threadblaineNov 25, 2022

@danhon @fraying 💯 to all of this. The one thing I'd add and meant to earlier on one of @fraying's threads (but just totally overloaded) is that topological determinism *is a thing* in the corporate-owned monopoly scenario. There is only *one* outcome there, and it's "do what the landlord says." If you're lucky, he'll agree with you, but it's Machiavellian *at best*.

Here, we at least have the *possibility* to break out of that. Not guaranteed by any stretch, but *possible*.

Show threadDerek Powazek 🐐Nov 25, 2022
@blaine @danhon the idea that “more landlords is better than fewer landlords” seems ahistorical to me at best. As for determinism, well, again, citation needed.
Show threadDerek Powazek 🐐Nov 25, 2022
@blaine @danhon the corporate web gave us Elon running Twitter but it also gave us Craig thumbing his nose at the growth mentality and running Craigslist in a totally different way. It gave us Zuck but it also gave us Wikipedia. Saying it only ends one way is overstating things a bit.
Show threadblaineNov 25, 2022
@fraying @danhon Craigslist is irrelevant in 2022, 100% replaced by FB marketplace. Wikipedia edit culture is toxic as fuck and has been for some time and needs to be forked, but also can't be. These aren't great examples, unfortunately.
Show threadDerek Powazek 🐐Nov 25, 2022
@blaine @danhon irrelevant by what standard? 100% Are you serious? You’re making blanket statements and then ignoring any examples you don’t like, which is not a great way to have a conversation
Show threadblaineNov 25, 2022
@fraying @danhon I can't speak for everywhere, but Craigslist is 100% spam around here and London, where I have lived. You couldn't safely give something away there.
Show threadDerek Powazek 🐐Nov 25, 2022
@blaine @danhon where I live in rural America it’s still basically core infrastructure. So maybe you’re the one who needs to expand your thinking a bit.
Show threadblaine
@fraying @danhon I think you're arguing for a federated model here? I'm really confused. All I was saying is that Craigslist isn't a monopolistic infrastructure. It just isn't a good example of something that "owns the space globally"
Nov 25, 2022 at 9:57pmMastodon for Android
Show threadDerek Powazek 🐐Nov 25, 2022
@blaine @danhon go back and read my very short thread again and stop putting words in my mouth.
Show threadblaineNov 25, 2022

@fraying @danhon https://xoxo.zone/@fraying/109406594323469992 "the idea that more landlords is better than fewer landlords is ahistorical" I read as "the Empire was good, actually"

I realize that's not what you said, but that's how it comes across to people on the wrong side of landlords. I think your statement is categorically wrong, and would need to see volumes and volumes of citations to believe otherwise.

Derek Powazek (@[email protected])

@[email protected] @[email protected] the idea that “more landlords is better than fewer landlords” seems ahistorical to me at best. As for determinism, well, again, citation needed.

XOXO Zone
Show threadDerek Powazek 🐐Nov 25, 2022

@blaine @danhon let me be clear because you’re clearly bad at reading:

Fuck off.

Show threadDmitri | 🇺🇦Nov 25, 2022

@fraying
hey.. that's more than a bit rude. you ok mate?

@blaine @danhon