(the physical design of your site, the colours, the layout, set the tone for how people behave on it, moreso than you think.)

Anyway we used to mention that in the site rules, the more-people-married-than-banned thing - it's still true, but we took it out because having it there could give people - maybe people trying to work up the nerve to report an abuser - the impression that we don't ban enough people. Or that we want to preserve this ratio by not banning people who need banned.

This is a very roundabout thread but I see I've got people reading it and this bit's important so I'm just gonna whack it in there: people generally don't report abusers.

This isn't because your site has an atmosphere where people are afraid to talk to the mods and you suck. Well, I mean, you might, but that's besides the point, even if you didn't suck people still wouldn't report their abusers for ALL SORTS OF REASONS.

These are known among certain circles as Barriers To Reporting.

People might not report their abusers because their abusers are well liked (they always are, that's how they get away with it) or because they're not sure they're being abused or if it's all in their head (they're being gaslit) or because the abuser's got dirt on them and might retaliate, or for all sorts of other reasons. These are all barriers to reporting.

NAME THEM AND TALK ABOUT THEM ON YOUR SITE. Then people will notice that they have their own barriers and that helps to dismantle them.

Here's the MotD on my site where we started operation stair repair. This names lots of barriers to reporting:
https://www.improbableisland.com/motd.php?id=467

This and the followup MotD are linked to from the Code of Conduct (linked a few times in the thread).

Naming the barriers to reporting is as important as naming and dissecting the tactics of abusers. This helps create an environment where abusers don't have it so easy. I call this "manipulation inoculation."

(oh man I wanna circle back to that boat thing real quick in case you get the wrong idea and think I'm posh - it's not my boat, it's my father's boat.

wait that's even worse. Okay so my dad bought an air compressor for fifty quid off this bloke in the 90's and he was umming and ahhing and getting ready to offer him thirty but the guy said oh go on I'll chuck in this boat. That's how fancy it is. It smells & is filled with men drinking lager from cans. It's a floating dumpster and we love it.)

Oh yeah, herding cats. Trying not to end up in a situation where I have to live with the idea that a thing I spent thousands of hours building might be making someone's life measurably worse.

You don't HAVE to have a bunch of neuroses to do this job, but if you don't, you will.

Right I'm actually gonna try and write some code for a minute haha

Tonight I'm making a new Monthly Memento, that's a thing you get if you give me a tenner, and it's different every month. This month it's a rainbow torch (flashlight to you americans) and I would've done it last night but I had an absolutely banging migraine so right now the item's in the game but the description reads "This'll do something tomorrow, tonight I have a banging migraine thx 4 patience"

THIS ALSO HELPS REMIND YOUR COMMUNITY MEMBERS THAT THEIR ADMIN IS A REAL ACTUAL PERSON

Talk about your day a bit. Tread a real fine line between being absolutely robotic customer service person and letting a bunch of Internet People know too much about you.

Oh and don't talk like a customer service person. If you talk like customer service then people will treat you like customer service and christ you've seen how people treat customer service

Online community management thread continued, back to talking about the decline phase:

I touched on this earlier, but members leave websites because... well, they're websites, and staying on one website for a decade is WEIRD. Nobody does that, really.

I had a good furtle around in a "state of the site" thread on a big, old website currently stuck in Heartbreak Mode (I won't name the site) and to read that thread you'd think the only people left on the site are people who shouldn't be.

State of the Site updates where everyone freaks out about declining numbers are a characteristic of Heartbreak Mode, and in threads like this, the reason why everyone left the site is, obviously, the reason you personally are unhappy being on the site.

Everyone in this thread is unhappy for a different reason and this is a GREAT thing to fight over because no side ever gets proven wrong.

A thread like this can spin its wheels into hundreds of extremely unhelpful comments and the mods won't shut it down because to do so would be a Bad Look, given that the thread is full of complaints about the site and heartfelt pleas to have $yourParticularIssue taken seriously because the admin's failure to properly address it is *obviously* the reason numbers are dropping.

Also, these threads do, occasionally, provide a nugget of semi-helpful advice, if one is willing to fish around for it.

Anyway the arguing about why people left. There are parallels here with people arguing about where your "you" goes when you die.

1. You can't ever know. You can't ask someone, because they're not here. If you email someone and ask, then you'll be emailing someone who was well known enough on the site to have their otherly-online identities known, and they leave for different reasons.

2. The actual reason people leave (it's JUST a WEBSITE) is emotionally unsatisfying and we want an alternative!

3. This is the dumbest part. People (who are STILL THERE) will chime in to say "Well I left because of $myParticularIssue, there's one data point."

Oh you left did you love, left forever and just happened to pop in randomly just for this thread, you were dead but you got better, aye fair do's

If some of the issues brought up in the thread are social justice issues, then WOE BETIDE YE.

Progressive/leftist online spaces have their own set of problems unique to them, which I might have a chat about at some point when wiping my arse with 80-grit sandpaper isn't enough to shake the cobwebs off in the morning.

Say you're throwing a party, and it's a good one. When it's time for someone to leave, do you say "Cheers for stopping by, it's been really fun!" or do you say "No, please don't go, I'll pull out the futon, we have to keep this going..."

You do the first one because you're not a BLOODY CRAZY PERSON. Or a website.

Let people leave your website!

Pulling the sort of crap that modern websites pull, the little FOMO nags or notifications or emails about "Please don't leave we're desperate and you're really cool" or whatever, is a great way of filling your site with people who don't actually want to be there, and that's a one-way ticket to a dysfunctional, unhealthy community.

Hold people GENTLY. When it's time for them to go, wish them well and let them go, don't try to stop them or lure them or entice them back.

Internet Greybeard Community Management Thread Continued!

Some more required reading for anyone thinking of setting up any kind of geeky/nerdy community, and how it can all go wrong. Forewarned is forearmed!

FIVE GEEK SOCIAL FALLACIES
https://plausiblydeniable.com/five-geek-social-fallacies/

THE WRATH OF CAT PISS MAN
https://web.archive.org/web/20060212205816/http://www.savantmag.com/16/retail16.html

FF7 FANDOM MADHOUSE
http://www.demon-sushi.com/warning/

THE MISSING STAIR
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_stair

RPGNET ON BANNING TRUMP SUPPORTERS
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/new-ban-do-not-post-in-support-of-trump-or-his-administration.835849/

(the whole thread is a good read)

Does the admin "owe" the users, for their participation or donations? Do the users "owe" the admin and mods, for their labour and money invested into keeping the site online?

TBQH I wanna completely sidestep that question and give the unsatisfying non-answer of "If you're thinking in terms of who owes who then things are already shaky and you need to sort that out."

Nobody owes anybody a damn thing. As site admin you make a bet that the advertising money you spend on getting a new user will pay off with a donation. Sometimes you win, most of the time you lose, but if even 10% of your users love the place enough to kick in a fiver or a tenner and you're spending a nickel per new user, you're doing alright.

Yes, it comes down to money. Of COURSE it comes down to money. Web hosting costs money. Hosting a big community costs big money.

The money subject can be a whole nother aspect for another day, 'cause I'm talking about who owes who and I've gotta take the cat to the vet in a few minutes...

Your users shouldn't feel like they owe you anything. You made a bet that enough of them would pay their way for this to shake out well, and that bet is between you and your wallet.

You don't owe your users anything, save for your responsibility to keep them safe. You made this huge thing and let them on it for free.

If your users feel like they're owed something from you, or like they owe you something, that's an obligation that can keep them on the site after they're no longer having fun.

You don't want that. You want your users to feel free to come and go as they please. Hold them too tightly and you're headed to Heartbreak City.

Furthermore, allowing a sense of entitlement to arise among your users will really heck things up. Every improvement you make to the site will be met with cries of anguish (from the 0.1% of users who shout the loudest), either that the improvement is Bad Actually or that you should be working on $theirParticularIssue instead.

It probably goes without saying that your relationship with your users shouldn't be an antagonistic one!

Is it time to talk about money? Aye sure Internet Community Catherding Part 7, GRUBBY CASH

I should start by asking, do you actually wanna make money off a website?

'cause on the one hand, if this is just a hobby and you start having to deal with the sort of thing I've talked about in this thread, damn right you're gonna want paid to put up with that. On the other, if this is a hobby that you enjoy and you turn it into work, you're gonna need a new hobby.

Note: money changes how you, your users and the site interact.

Donating makes your users feel invested in the thing you're doing, and lets them express that they like it and want it to succeed. It doesn't breed a sense of entitlement like you might expect, that's only a thing that happens with users who were gonna end up feeling entitled anyway - if there weren't a donations link they'd feel entitled to your attention just for, like, looking at the site.

Accepting donations from nice users also lowers your tolerance for nonsense from nasty users.

(which is good tbqh, a lot more admins couId stand to be a little more ruthless)

I've been talking about voluntary donations here because other ways of paying the bills... don't.

Not all of this is applicable to paying the bills for other online communities, but here's a couple things we've tried on Improbable Island.

1. Adverts! We used to have banner ads across the top of the site. If I earned a buck a day with a banner ad, that was a good day. It's not 1999 anymore, adverts don't earn money unless you're doing the creepy spyware stuff that right from the start I knew I never wanted to do.

2. Optional adverts! If you paid a fiver you could get rid of them.

Opt-out ads earned even less money, and if you're bothered enough to pay 5c to remove ads you'll just block them, never mind $5.

3. Opt IN adverts! Ads were off by default and if you wanted to support the site you could turn them on! We really did this! Yes! Yes we did! It failed! People VASTLY overestimate how much you can make from running ads, and instead of giving a fiver they'd earn us 0.05c in advertising revenue.

The problem with running adverts on any basis is that the people who were inclined to donate money to keep the site running, the people who think about how much it must cost and what must go into it and go "Hmm, I like this place, wonder how I can help," will just disable their adblocker and earn you a couple pennies, when they'd happily give you a fiver.

When we cut off all ads, even the opt-in ones, donations tripled. It was like people suddenly remembered that clicking doesn't do anything.

4. Merchandise!

Don't do merchandise. Don't do merchandise even if people are begging you to do merchandise. For every twenty people who say they'll buy a T-shirt, one will, and for their tenner you'll get a dollar in profit. Their motivation for buying a T-shirt was to give you twelve dollars, they've already got T-shirts, they don't *really* want the T-shirt, just let them give you the tenner.

Even logistics and inventory aside, it gets worse...

If people see that you're selling merch, they'll think "They're making a fortune in merch, I don't need to donate," and then they won't donate AND they won't buy the merch!

Just do a donation meter. When it gets full, everybody gets a little something and the ones who donate get a little something extra. Simple.

Remind people that there are no ads (most won't notice, or assume there are ads they've blocked) and ask politely for some money. Be straightforward about it. Don't be sneaky.

christ this whole thread is like the opposite of what all the big sites do isn't it

If you wanna be a big site with millions of users obviously don't do any of this

(who the hell wants a big site with millions of users, that sounds like a heart attack before 40 to me)