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Reducing Stress in Website Management
Website managers face overwhelming tasks daily, necessitating prioritization, proactive communication, and streamlined processes to reduce mental load and ensure client satisfaction.https://openchannels.fm/reducing-stress-in-website-management/
Building Trust at Scale and Navigating Agency Challenges in the Age of AI
Open Channels FM Building Trust at Scale and Navigating Agency Challenges in the Age of AI Play EpisodePause Episode Mute/Unmute EpisodeRewind 10 Seconds1xFast Forward 30 seconds 00:00/00:33:35 SubscribeShare Apple Podcasts CastBox Overcast PocketCasts RSS Spotify RSS Feed Share Link Embed https://openchannels.fm/building-trust-at-scale-and-navigating-agency-challenges-in-the-age-of-ai/embed/#?secret=fkCAvnGNHr<script> /*! This file is auto-generated */ !function(d,l){"use strict";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&"undefined"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!/[^a-zA-Z0-9]/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret="'+t.secret+'"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret="'+t.secret+'"]'),c=new RegExp("^https?:$","i"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display="none";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute("style"),"height"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):"link"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute("src")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener("message",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener("DOMContentLoaded",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll("iframe.wp-embedded-content"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute("data-secret"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+="#?secret="+t,e.setAttribute("data-secret",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:"ready",secret:t},"*")},!1)))}(window,document); //# sourceURL=https://openchannels.fm/wp-includes/js/wp-embed.min.js </script> ' title="Embed Code" class="input-embed input-embed-2551086" readonly/>Download file | Play in new window | Duration: 00:33:35
In this episode, host Adam Weeks is joined by Marc Benzakein for a thoughtful conversation about the challenges agencies face in todayâs digital landscape. They kick things off with a personal touch, catching up on life and joking about buying lunch, before their chat about the ever-present client question: âWhat have you done for me lately?â
Drawing from real-world agency experiences, they discuss the impact of AI on workflows, shifting client expectations, and the constant demand for efficiency and proof of value. Marc shares his perspective on how MainWP supports agencies, the ongoing struggle with plugin updates, and why proactive communication is a game changer when managing hundreds or even thousands of sites. Youâll get practical tips on reducing mental load, scaling without losing quality, and delivering trust through transparency.
Whether youâre just getting started with website management or youâre a seasoned professional, this episode is packed with honest advice, relatable stories, and insights on staying relevant in a rapidly changing field.
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Takeaways
Mentioned Links and Resources
Timestamped Overview (audio)
Adam Weeks:
Hi, this is Adam Weeks from Open Channels, and I am joined by my good friend Mark, Mark Benzakein. We are going to be talking about What have you done for me lately? This is a conversation we were talking before I hit record, and thereâs a lot of pressure on us as people and agencies. What have you done for me lately? We send out those invoices and we know the people on the other end of the invoice are saying, oh yeah, this was great, but are you going to keep providing for me? Are you going to keep offering this? So, so, Mark, What have you done for me lately? Or how are you experiencing that?
Marc Benzakein:
Iâll tell you what, you and I are going to be having lunch in a couple of weeks. Iâll buy you lunch. Thatâs what I will have done for you lately in a couple of weeks. Howâs that?
Adam Weeks:
I love it.
Marc Benzakein:
I love it.
Adam Weeks:
Thatâs going to be fun. Yeah, itâs been too long. Yeah. Agencies and a lot of people who listen to Open Channels are agencies. They experience what agencies experience. You have experienced this and you are now at MainWP, and I believe you guys are trying to help, help agencies out. What, what do you see agencies, what are they struggling with here in 2026? So many things are changing with AI. What are, what are you seeing agencies struggle with?
Marc Benzakein:
Well, I think, I think that of course you just hit on it, AI and the quote unquote efficiency of AI. I think that the debate is still out there whether or not it is truly efficient. But I do. Think that people are looking at the writing on the wall, whether itâs accurate writing or not. But the writing on the wall is that AI is going to, quote unquote, you know, be able to do things in, you know, a much quicker period of time than what a human can do. And so I think that thatâs the biggest challenge. But of course, the challenge, whether youâre an agency or whatever kind of business you might be, efficiency is always is going to be at the forefront of your, of your mindset because efficiency leads to profitability. And thatâs really when you talk about a business, letâs just assume weâre all in business to make money, right? So, so with, with MainWP specifically, if you want to talk about that, I would say that the focus is always on how can we provide agencies with the ability to work more efficiently and effectively, but not just from a standpoint of what have we done for them lately, but what can they do for their client lately? And, and thatâs an important thing. So whatever their deliverables are to be able to justify their existence is important to us, right? Yeah. And, and so we look at things like, for instance, the Pro Reports or, you know, how, you know, in the world of like the WordPress maintenance space, and dashboard. Well, obviously, maintenance is a big business for agencies. Itâs a big draw. It is a lot of work. And we try to make that as easy as possible for the agencies to get that information and be able to provide something fairly quickly and efficiently to their clients that say, hey, this is why we exist, this is why weâre here, and this is why youâre paying us.
Adam Weeks:
Yeah, I think about AI. There are pros and cons, and one of the cons I would imagine is the expectations that it can upset. Whereas a client may have expected, hey, like this should take you this amount of time, but then, you know, someone was telling them about, hey, my Claude bot or whatever it is I was on, you know, using Claude and look what I, spun up over the weekend. Shouldnât your agency be able to do that too? Yeah. How are you guys seeing about setting expectations in this age of AI? Is thatâ yeah, maybe slow down a little bit.
Marc Benzakein:
Well, I think that one of the things that we will always hold on to with AI is the fact that there is always, always going to need to be some sort of human oversight and intervention. So creating tools as a general, not just a main MVP, but as a general state of mind, providing tools for human oversight to work, you know, effectively across the board is, is an important thing. So AI may be able to do something quickly, but if you donât have someone behind the keyboard that can say, yeah, this is good code or this is bad code or, you know, this is good writing or bad writing or, you know, whatever it may be, itâs always, I mean, the thing that you have to keep in mind is that AI is still based on all of the stuff thatâs out there, right? Itâs not gotten to the point where itâs thinking for itself yet. Itâs really not. Itâs really just processing data at a much faster rate. And so if you have a lot of garbage code out there, for instance, yeah, it may work this week,, you know, I have actually had, Iâve gone in and had AI create plugins for me that worked today, you know, and then 3 weeks later Iâm like, hmm, whatâs going on here? Because Iâm not, you know, as much of a coder as I might have once been. And so I think that the key for humans is to say, look, AI is here and itâs not here to replace us. What we need to do is get better at recognizing the patterns that AI is throwing out there and being able to see whatâs wrong and, and be able to fix it and do it in the most efficient manner possible. And, you know, or you can just fight it and see where that leads. You know, good luck. Yeah. Yeah. Good luck with that. With that behemoth. Right.
Adam Weeks:
So Yeah, I imagine that you spend a fair amount of time talking to agencies in the trenches, like what theyâre, what theyâre doing. Do you have any examples? Maybe redact some names or not. What examples? Like what areâ what specific stresses are agencies having that maybe are managing multiple websites? Like if youâre, if youâre like, itâs one thing to like, okay, I can, I can handle like this one website, but what happens when we have 20 websites that weâre managing, 50 websites? What are some of those current struggles that youâre seeing? Maybe theyâve always been the same.
Marc Benzakein:
I think that theyâve always been the same. And itâs always been this, this concern with plugin or theme updates, that kind of thing happening automatically, or core updates for that matter, happening automatically, and not being able to really actively see whatâs going on or knowing. And when all of a suddenâ and one of the things that Iâll point out here is weâre noticing that there may be a wider gap. So, so because of the way MainWP works, weâre very privacy focused. We actually do not know for sure how many installs there are out there because we donât collect any data from our customers other than their email address. And then the billing, we donât even collect their billing information that goes to a gateway. So we donât, we donât. And as a result of that, because of the fact that weâre so privacy focused, we can only basically We basically look at what the repository shows us and things like that. And, but, so, but the conclusions that weâre coming to, what Iâm getting at here is weâve always said, well, our average agency has 30 sites. They manage 30 sites. Okay. Or our average customer has, manages 30 sites. But the reality is weâre finding more and more that thereâs a huge gap between the bigger agencies and theyâve got thousands, literally thousands of sites versus, you know, and then there are others that might have 5 to 10. I talk to agencies pretty regularly and itâs, you know, once in a while Iâll be like, oh yeah, I, I donât have a lot of sites. I have about 800 sites that Iâm managing. To me, thatâs like a big number. But then I talk to other people and theyâre like, oh yeah, weâre managing 3,000 sites. And so when you, when you think about that, managing that many sites, you have to have really good monitoring to know, like, when these automatic updates are happening. You have to have really good, like, microscopic control over what kind of updates you want to happen automatically and what kind you donât. And you need to know when something is going wrong and all of that. So thereâs that aspect of it. And, and there are some agencies that Iâve spoken to, they say, they say, look, I use MainWP just to see all the sites that need updates, but I still, you know, from the MainWP dashboard, I still manually update and make sure that works. And then I have other agencies that say, look, MainWP has been great, never had any problems. It just does everything automatically. And I look at the uptime monitor to make sure that everything is up and running and looks good. So everybody has kind of a different attitude and Yeah, different workflow. And, and, and for us, I think weâre kind of into that mentality now of every nanosecond counts. And so, so we have gone into like changing the UI so that youâre not clicking as many times to get to the same place. Screen refreshes donât happen as often because, for instance, every time you would, you would update something or check something, it would, it would do a refresh of the, of the tables. On your screen and things like that. And so little things like that, that, that take you from almost like this attitude of, yeah, it works, to it just works, right? And the it just works mentality is what weâre always shooting for because that means that, that youâre not noticing anything thatâs kind of like getting on your nerves a little bit. And, and those, those seconds count. Yeah. And And so, so itâs almost like the things that weâre shooting for are not things that, that people will tangibly notice unless theyâre really looking for it, but theyâll just feel more comfortable. Theyâll just have a feel for it.
Adam Weeks:
Lower, lower mental load.
Marc Benzakein:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I mean, you know that when you load a website and it takes 10 seconds, which, you know, if you think about the old days when we had to ride to the library to get a book, and yet this 10 seconds is like excruciating to us now. Yeah. The faster you can make things, the better. We are just in that kind of world. And so thatâs, thatâs where a large, a large part of the focus has been. But we also feel like people should be able to work the way that they want to. And so if you want to integrate quad code into some of your workflow, you can do that if you want to, you know, doâ if you donât want to, you donât have to. If you want a command line interface, you can have that. If you, you know, all that kind of stuff, itâs a matter of that, but itâs always a matter of making it work efficiently. And I think that thatâs one of the things that when people ask, what have you done for me lately? Itâs like, well, You know, some of this may not be as tangible as youâd like, but it is really big.
Adam Weeks:
And yeah, I want to go back to updates. Is anybody managing or, you know, are there agencies that are managing websites out there that theyâre comfortable turning on all the auto updates? Is anybody doing that successfully?
Marc Benzakein:
I will tell you that I have had some people say I will do automatic updates on everything except for the plugin from this manufacturer. Okay. This, this, this developer or whatever. But Iâll do automatic updates on everything else. You know, this is me, this is, this is my toolbox. This is what I always use, blah, blah, blah. But thereâs this one and I wonât say which one it is because it comes up a lot. But thereâs this one that comes up there like, I will always do that manually because I donât, you know, when it works, it works. But when it doesnât,, you know, I have to roll back and, you know, and I need to be there just to watch it.
Adam Weeks:
Yeah. Those are the war stories that people have. You know, thatâs how you become an expert, I would say, is knowing which ones those are.
Marc Benzakein:
Right, right. Absolutely. And thatâs what, once again, one of those things that AI really canât do for you. I mean, I donât know whatâs it going to do, look at a bunch of statistics and look at like WordPress.org reviews and say, oh, Look, 40% of the time the reviews say they had a hard time updating. So therefore, I mean, itâs, itâs, itâs data points to a certain degree, but once again, youâre going to need a human to go in and verify all that.
Adam Weeks:
Well, and also thereâs, thereâs no real way that I can think of that you could tell the AI, here are all of the times that I have had a plugin not, you know, had a plugin break something when it auto-updated. Like, you know, youâve got, you know, 10, 15 years of those things and thereâs no real way, I think, to have it know everything you know.
Marc Benzakein:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thereâs something to be said for personal experience or what I call wisdom. And, and AI is intelligent, but itâs not wise.
Adam Weeks:
When it comes toâ I think of this like a mental load idea and that many of the people who are you know, building websites for others, managing, maintaining websites, they are working from home. Theyâre not in an office with other people. And so with that comes, all right, Iâm gonna sit down on my computer and what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do first? Whatâs most important? And oftentimes the client thatâs yelling the loudest or the most, you know, thatâs what youâre gonna do. But when, when you have a process, Iâm curious your thought about how an agency can approach systematizing, systematically reducing the mental load of managing websites. What do youâ how do you think about that?
Marc Benzakein:
So from a clientâ okay, Iâm not talking about an agency point of view, but from the clients of the agencyâs point of view, all they want to know is that their sites are up and running. Thatâs it. Okay. Theyâre not going to probably make a peep unless something doesnât work exactly the way that they expected it to or something goes down. From an agency point of view, itâs really assuming that, you know, you are a good agency and youâre always monitoring and paying attention to whatâs up and whatâs down. In my opinion, an agency should do two things. One, they should pick a good host. Okay, so The host, in my opinion, also is responsible for things like they should notice if thereâs a thing down before even the agency notices something is down. So you have to start at this level, right? Okay. So you start at this level with a good host. Itâs like theyâre, theyâre hypervigilant about their servers and making sure that sites are up. And if something looks even a little bit suspicious, then either they take care of it or they let the agency know, hey, weâre having this problem, this is going on, etc., etc., etc. Okay. So thatâs that part of it. The agency then is responsible to decide whether or not that needs to be reported to the customer or if it is something that their client may not need to know about because it may not affect them. Okay, for instance, you might have a host that for some reason that says, I donât know, Iâm going to pick up something random thatâs probably not even realistic. But like, letâs say that, that a host says, hey, we noticed every single WooCommerce site is down on our server. Okay, but I might be an agency and all this person has is a landing page and they donât have a WooCommerce site. Why am I going to contact them and say, hey, the host is having problem with WooCommerce sites? Okay, thatâs, I mean, thatâs, thatâs kind of like an extreme kind of example, but Iâm trying to come up with something, you know, like that, thatâ so the agency needs to be able to disseminate the right information to the client. They need to be very proactive, which means that in their maintenance plans or whatever it is that theyâre doing, they need to report to their clients proactively once a month or whatever it is, everything thatâs going on. Okay, so that the client knows what theyâre paying for. Because if the client is just saying, hey, Iâm spending this, whatever, $150 a month or whatever it is for maintenance, and I donât even know what they did last month, then thereâs a problem right there to begin with. Okay, so, so something that an agency should look to is how can we do this in an efficient manner? Because if weâve, if weâre managing 3,000 websites, you know, either we have to have a really big staff thatâs producing a lot of paper or we need to have systems in place that make it really easy to disseminate this information, even automate it if it, if it makes sense. That way everybody is happy. Everybody gets the information that they need. A lot of times if you have like these bigger websites, youâve got people who have decided youâve got an IT staff that has to justify why theyâre paying for maintenance, why theyâre paying for hosting. They have to pay it. They have to justify it to a bean counter. So they need to be, you know, so it all goes downhill, right? And ultimately, if they canât go to the powers that be and say, you know, here, then all of a sudden the C-suite gets involved and everything, you know, goes. And then the IT is like, okay, I need justification for this. And the agency feels like theyâre about ready to lose a customer, whereas if theyâd been proactive all along, these things are, are not going to come up quite as often.
Adam Weeks:
Well, and if youâve got one website that youâre maintaining, uh, yeah, uh, send a quick email, like, you know, thatâs easy to do. But when you were talking about, yeah, Iâve got 800 websites, yeah, how do you, how do you do that?
Marc Benzakein:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So you need, you need something like what we provide. Um, Iâm not saying it has to be us, although I would you know, love it if it was, but, um, but, uh, you need, youâd need something like a main WP that, that handles that for you. I still think that even with all automations, I tend to be, me personally, I still tend to be a, I need to lay eyes on this to make sure that whatâs going out makes sense and, and that it works and that everything does the thing that it does. I mean, uh, every single week I send out a mass email and I still double-check to make sure that going to the right people and that the audienceâ yeah, and all of that. And, you know, I donât want to get like a million spam complaints because I wasnât vigilant on, on who those emails went out to. And so automations are great, but you got to, you got to keep your eye on it.
Adam Weeks:
Well, yeah, you, you donât want to send a message that shouldnât have been sent. I donât want to waste my clientâs time. Right. You also do automations, donât want to miss anything because if the client says, hey, my, you know, this is not working on my website, this is down, this is like, you want to be the one to tell the client. I was a school principal and I never wanted the student to go home and tell their parent what happened bad at school.
Sponsor Announcer:
Right.
Adam Weeks:
I didnât want that to be the story because I knew I needed to get out in front of it to give it context, like, okay, little Johnny was the, you know, like thatâs the, that is a way to control and help make sure, because I, if the parent was the one that was saying, hey, Mr. Weeks, my child said this, I know exactly how that conversationâs gonna go and itâs not gonna go well.
Marc Benzakein:
No, no, no. The last per, especially when you look at the filters that children have. Yeah, yeah.
Adam Weeks:
The kidâs gonna put themselves in a very positive light.
Marc Benzakein:
Right.
Adam Weeks:
And Mrs. So-and-so, she was so mean to me.
Marc Benzakein:
Or that kid. Exactly. Okay, well, thatâs not quite what happened. Yeah, yeah. And you and I have talked about, about the PR of it all, right? Yeah, yeah. And, and thatâs part of it, but, but the best kind of PR is the proactive PR, not the reactive PR. Um, one is, one is good public relations, the other is crisis management, as weâve talked about. And thatâs the last thing that you need to deal with. And, and, uh, I will tell you, you know, the host that I use for everything every singleâ there, he, you know, and itâs a small host up here in the, in Northern California, and he, uh, I, I actually work with him on some things, and man, this stuff, he goes into detail. Itâs not just like a, hey, weâre having this issue, itâs like, this is what happened, this is how it happened, blah blah blah blah blah, and he goes into great detail. And, and Iâve already fixed it, you probably didnât even notice. I mean, thatâs the funny thing is like at the end of it, itâll be like Itâs already been fixed. You probably didnât notice, but I thought you might be curious as to, you know, all of this. And, and I think that, you know, sometimes that might be overkill. But on the other hand, some people, you know, especially agencies, they want to know all the details and then they can figure out how to distill it down to, to, to satisfy their customers.
Adam Weeks:
It builds trust. And we all know that we donât live in a perfect world where nothing You know, something is going to go wrong. Thereâs like, you know, these hosts that say we have 99.99999% uptime. Like, do you? Do you really have? I mean, like, I donât know how you coming up with that statistic, but it feels overinflated. Things are going to be imperfect, right? What you do about it, how you communicate it. And I like how youâre saying this. The guy who is a host, he will be specific because that specificity tells me that he knows his craft, that heâs an expert.
Marc Benzakein:
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And, and Iâll be honest, he doesnât have a filter. I mean, he doesnât, he doesnât try to polish it up or anything like that. Heâs just, heâs an engineer. He talks like an engineer. And sometimes you have to, you know, put it through a thesaurus and translator to figure out what heâs saying. Yeah. But, but Iâd rather have that, you know, and I think that most people would. Iâd rather have too much information than not enough. But I wantâ I also at the same time want to know whatâs relevant to me because I donât have the time to figure it all out.
Adam Weeks:
And thereâs a balance to be had. Donât try to fluff me up and tell me everythingâs fine when itâs not. Donâtâ yeah, donâtâ yeah, donât try to just gloss over it and minimize it. Be authentic. But yeah, I donât need the entire history of the server and how we got here to know that you know your stuff.
Marc Benzakein:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So and everybody knows that he knows his stuff. Every customer that he has knows that he knows his stuff. So but thatâs, thatâs an example. And I think that, that, thatâs one of those things that anybody who creates agency tools needs to keep in mind is that if thereâs anything that you provide to them that theyâre going to have to disseminate to their customers, you make it as easy as possible for them to do it. Because the secret to any business success is scalability. And if you canât help your customers become scalable, then youâre not necessarily doing them a service. And scalability can come in a number of ways. It can be in time saving, it can be in UX that works. It can be in, you know, in, in, in reports that, that take less time to produce. And it can be just a number of ways. It can be in how easy it is to update all your plugins and your themes and all of that. Itâs just every little thing counts and it all adds up and nothing is too small.
Adam Weeks:
Right. I think you bring a really good point. Scalability is the key because if we could make a really good living off of just managing one website and that was great, then yeah, we would give all the like bespoke custom. This would be such a great thing. But like thatâsâ itâs hard to live off $150 a month engagement that way. Yeah, you canât do that. So you have to scale. But can you scale while keeping the quality as high, right? And can you do that?
Marc Benzakein:
Right. And that has to do with, of course, the, the workflow of each agency and how they, how they build their agency and whatâs important to them. Because generally, as, as a general rule, I would like to think in my ideal world that agencies will only attract customers that subscribe to the same philosophies as the agency. So if the agency says these are the types of people that are important to us, those are the people theyâre going to attract. And these are, these are the things that are important to us as a, as an agency. Therefore, this is whatâ thatâs when you have like, I hate using this word and Iâm about to, itâs such a corporate word, but thatâs when you have the synergy that you need between I hate that word.
Adam Weeks:
I got overused for a reason, though.
Marc Benzakein:
Like, I know it still means something. Yeah. And obviously Iâm using it right now with a disclaimer. Yeah, but yeah, Iâmâ yeah, but, but thatâs when you haveâ once again, those are kind of like those unseen things, but, but theyâre important is that your customers need to have, you know, letâs say that Iâm an agency and I have a certain political affiliation. And then I bring on a website where theyâre pushing the other political, you know, which is complete polar opposite of what I guarantee you, eventually that relationship is not going to work out, you know, and thatâs maybe something they never even discussed. But somehow or another, thereâs these intangible things that, that interact with each other that give people longevity. But what you have to do as an agency is give them every reason in the world to want to keep you as an agency. And that means informing them. It means serving them. It means communicating with them while at the same time trying to scale.
Adam Weeks:
Yeah. Yeah.
Marc Benzakein:
Building trust at scale. Building trust at scale. Thatâs a great way to look at it.
Sponsor Announcer:
Yeah.
Adam Weeks:
Yeah. And, and yeah. And as we kind of wrap up, you know, Iâmâ MainWP has been around a long time.
Marc Benzakein:
You guys have beenâ 12 years. 12 years. This month is 12 years for us. And for an independent company like, like MaineWP to last, itâs not just that, but the staff still comes in. I wrote a blog post and the staff comes in every day and theyâre like, weâre just getting started. Weâre just getting started. We just likeâ and Iâm like, how can you after 12? I mean, Iâm kind of newer to the company. Iâve been here now 3 years, but, but Iâm newer to the company and itâs like, this is amazing that they come in every day with that mentality, but I didnât mean toâ yeah, the enthusiasm is really kind of huge.
Adam Weeks:
Yeah. Yeah, thatâs great. And I love the idea that as, as people, you know, some people who are listening to this may have just started managing websites, some have been doing it for, for years and years and years. There is this like, when do you become an expert? When like, are you a professional in the craft? And that can be different, but everybody has if you are an expert, I know like if youâre someone who services air conditioners, like you have your tools, you have your tools that have been crafted over time. And it sounds like some of the things you guys are doing at MainWP with this version 6 thatâs coming out that you want to continue to be that secret tool, maybe not so secret forâ
Marc Benzakein:
doesnât have to be secret.
Adam Weeks:
Yeah, yeah. For, you know, for your, for your clients so that they can service their clients and do that efficiently. So yeah, as we wrap up, is there anythingâ yeah, someone wants to know more about MainWP or the work that you guys are doing, how would they find you?
Marc Benzakein:
Well, really quickly, I want to address the thing about being an expert. I have two sayings that I like when it comes to being an expert. Okay. One is one that my dad always used to say. Heâs a French professor, retired French professor, and itâs translated roughly as, in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. Okay. Yeah. Okay. But my, my philosophy of being an expert is you just have to know one more thing than the person youâre dealing with. Just one thing. Just one. Just one more thing than the person youâre dealing with. And youâre an expert. And Iâm not saying you saidâ Iâm not saying that you set the bar that low, but Iâm saying that the important thing is the idea is, you know what that person needs, right? And youâre able to answer that. So that makes you an expert.
Adam Weeks:
And I thinkâ and you can communicate it.
Marc Benzakein:
And you can communicate it. Yes, absolutely. So you can find me all around. Iâm on LinkedIn and, and the socials, Twitter. You can find me at Mark Benzakein, mainewp.com. We have lots ofâ we have a Discord channel, we have a website, of course. And, and Iâm not quite sure what my conference schedule is looking like this year, but I doâ I donât know. I will have to see what this year is like. I got a lot of stuff going on personally that, that kind of traveling.
Adam Weeks:
So, well, Iâm going to try to twist your arm to see if we can get you to press conf here coming up soon.
Marc Benzakein:
Youâve already tried to twist my arm and I am seriously considering it.
Adam Weeks:
So itâs going to be a good one. But yeah, thereâs lots of events, things thatâ but yeah, part of the beauty of what we do is that if we canât see each other in person,, you know, we can hop on a Zoom, but you and I, weâre going to go have lunch here in a little bit.
Marc Benzakein:
Yeah, Iâm looking forward to that. We need to do it more than once a year though, I think.
Adam Weeks:
We do need to do it more than once a year. Yeah. Good stuff. Well, Mark, thank you so much for sharing your expertise and knowing at least one more thing than me. Many, many, many, many things more than I. And I have learned from you.
Marc Benzakein:
So thank you for this. Thatâs called the wisdom from being a little bit older.
Adam Weeks:
See, thereâs the wisdom, which AI will never do.
Marc Benzakein:
All right. All right.
Adam Weeks:
Thanks, Adam.
Marc Benzakein:
Bye.
Navigating the Future of Partnerships and AI in the Open Web
Open Channels FM Navigating the Future of Partnerships and AI in the Open Web Play EpisodePause Episode Mute/Unmute EpisodeRewind 10 Seconds1xFast Forward 30 seconds 00:00/01:01:56 SubscribeShare Apple Podcasts CastBox Overcast PocketCasts RSS Spotify RSS Feed Share Link Embed https://openchannels.fm/navigating-the-future-of-partnerships-and-ai-in-the-open-web/embed/#?secret=pvEBgrQTwK<script> /*! This file is auto-generated */ !function(d,l){"use strict";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&"undefined"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!/[^a-zA-Z0-9]/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret="'+t.secret+'"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret="'+t.secret+'"]'),c=new RegExp("^https?:$","i"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display="none";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute("style"),"height"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):"link"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute("src")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener("message",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener("DOMContentLoaded",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll("iframe.wp-embedded-content"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute("data-secret"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+="#?secret="+t,e.setAttribute("data-secret",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:"ready",secret:t},"*")},!1)))}(window,document); //# sourceURL=https://openchannels.fm/wp-includes/js/wp-embed.min.js </script> ' title="Embed Code" class="input-embed input-embed-1650459" readonly/>Download file | Play in new window | Duration: 01:01:56
In this conversation, Zach Stepek and Carl Alexander dive deep into the evolving dynamics of partnerships and community within the WordPress and broader web development space. Fresh off a talk at a major web technologies conference in Montreal, Carl shares insights about current trends like the overwhelming interest in AI and the ongoing evolution of industry conferences.
The discussion explores how traditional partner programs, co-marketing, and differentiated support are being reimagined, and why alignment and genuine collaboration between agencies, hosting providers, and product creators are more important than ever. As AI continues to disrupt and reshape the landscape, Zach and Carl ask: what does it truly mean to build sustainable, people-centered partnerships? And with the barriers to building software lower than ever, what new challenges does that raise for builders, agencies, and the WordPress ecosystem as a whole?
Expect a thoughtful, honest conversation about community, the impact of new technology on established players, and the essential human connections that keep our industry moving forward. Whether youâre an agency owner, developer, or product creator, youâll find plenty of relevant insights in this episode of Open Channels FM.
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Takeaways
Mentoned Links and Resources
Kung Fu (Montreal Conference) â A web technologies conference in Montreal, previously known as PHP Quebec. đ https://www.kungfu.co/
GitGuardian â Security-focused company, where Duane (mentioned in the episode) currently works. đ https://www.gitguardian.com/
GitKraken â Developer of Git tools, mentioned as Duaneâs previous employer. đ https://www.gitkraken.com/
đ https://wpengine.com/
CloudFest â A major global cloud, hosting, and internet infrastructure industry event.
đ https://www.cloudfest.com/
PressConf â Referenced as an upcoming WordPress-focused event that the hosts plan to attend.
đ https://pressconf.com/
OllieWP â WordPress product and theme company mentioned as innovating in the block-first experience. đ https://olliewp.com/
Harvard Business Review â The Elements of Style
Referenced as a resource for improving writing and understanding the value of âlists of three.â đ https://www.amazon.com/Elements-Style-William-Strunk-Jr/dp/020530902X/ đ https://hbr.org/
Laravel Cloud & Laravel Vapor â Platform as a Service (PaaS) offerings for Laravel applications, discussed in the context of support expectations. đ https://cloud.laravel.com/ đ https://vapor.laravel.com/
Vercel â Platform for frontend frameworks and static sites, mentioned as an aspirational model for the hosting world. đ https://vercel.com/
Cloudflare â Popular CDN and internet security provider, referenced in context of a recent outage. đ https://www.cloudflare.com/
DNSimple â Domain management automation platform, brought up regarding challenges in marketing and funnel optimization. đ https://dnsimple.com/
Tailwind â CSS framework, mentioned in a discussion about developer documentation and business challenges. đ https://tailwindcss.com/
Indie Hackers â Community for indie product developers and entrepreneurs, highlighted during the conversation about building and launching projects. đ https://www.indiehackers.com/
Timestamped Overview
Zach Stepek:
Hey everybody, Zach Stepek here with Carl Alexander again for another episode of Expanding the Stack. Carl, how are you doing, man?
Carl Alexander:
Iâm good. Iâm good. Iâm, you in between conference days right now. Thereâs a conference in Montreal called Kung Fu, which is a bit of a weird name, but itâs like web technologies. So I gave a talk there yesterday on serverless PHP. I actually met up with an old school, heâs completely out of the WordPress space now, but his nameâs like Dwayne. He used to work at Pantheon. You probably knew him, Zach. So yeah, Duaneâs here. Uh, so we hung out yesterday. Uh, he works at GitGuardian now, so itâs like a security company. Like heâs been there for a while now. Uh, nice. So it was, it was fun to catch up with him.
Zach Stepek:
I think he was at GitKraken for a while before that.
Carl Alexander:
Yeah, he was at GitKraken for before that, I believe. Uh, all Git, all Git all the time. Although like I, Iâm. Iâm not sure itâs related to Git. Like, I donât know. Iâm not even, Iâm not exactly sure what the productâs about, to be honest. And yeah, and then, uh, my partner is there volunteering. Sheâs been there all week, you know, she is trying to like be really involved in tech stuff. So itâs just been really fun to, uh, for her to be there and like, um, see all this stuff and all that energy and all that. So itâs a pretty, itâs a pretty big conference, like almost 1,000 people. So, um, wow.
Zach Stepek:
Yeah, that is pretty big.
Carl Alexander:
Yeah, itâs pretty big. So they, they do it a bit differently. It used to be PHP Quebec. It used to be PHP Quebec Conference, but that was like 20 years ago. Itâs been going on for a long time. Itâs like probably as old as CloudFest actually, um, in terms of conference. Definitely not the same size, but, um, but yeah, they split up to do all of web development now. So, oh, cool. Interesting. Lots of AI talks were the most popular thing. Shocking to no one. Shocking to no one. The full rooms were all the AI talks.
Zach Stepek:
I canât imagine why. Itâs not like our entire industry has been upended by this upstart technology, right?
Carl Alexander:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Zach Stepek:
So. Um, thatâs interesting. And are you headed to Roost next month for CloudFest?
Carl Alexander:
No, I, I honestly canât make it. I got, I was waitlisted for the hackathon, which I love. Um, and Iâm sad to miss. Um, but I honestly could not see it work financially to go. Um, itâs really expensive to go there.
Zach Stepek:
I get it. Iâm not going either, so I totally understand.
Carl Alexander:
Uh, is anybody from Big Scoots going? I met, uh, I want to say his name was Zach. It wasâ is there a Zach that doesâ thatâs like an engineer at Big Scoots?
Zach Stepek:
There are actually 3 of us in total with the name Zach at Big Scoots. Uh, so thereâs Zach Aufort, who runs our performance and security team. Uh, and thereâs Zach with a K whoâs on our support and engineering teams.
Carl Alexander:
I think it was Zach with a K. Iâd need to look it up, but there was a, I feel there was a Zach from Big Scoots that was there. Like his name was Zach. It was definitely Big Scoots. It was definitely Big Scoots, but I think it was Zach, but yeah, I met him on the bus back to the airport. I was talking about like serverless with, uh, Svilana from WP Engine. And like he heard me, but yeah, it was, it was kind of like interesting, but yeah, I, very expensive to go to even with everything that, um, the hackathon, uh, gives you, which is a lot. Um, but itâs still, you know, itâs still in Germany. Uh, itâs still outside a big city in Germany and itâs still because of that, you still have, you have to stay at like expensive hotels and stuff.
Zach Stepek:
So, um, and it didnât make sense. Kind of a, you know, resort environment whereâ
Carl Alexander:
Yeah, I mean, thatâs great. Like, yeah, yeah, you do all the roller coasters and all that stuff. Itâs great. Uh, like, I, I mean, Iâm bummed not to go, but like I said, it just didnât make sense. And honestly, um, makes more sense for me to be at PressConf. Yeah. Uh, thatâs my plan.
Zach Stepek:
Iâm hoping to be at press conf. Nothing confirmed yet on my end for that either. Yeah, but weâll get there. So I know that youâve been working in partnership with the company, and Iâveâ Iâm in a partnerships role. You know, my, my day is basically consumed by building and maintaining and managing and and working with our partners and building those partnerships, making sure that they have the resources they need, making sure that theyâre not, you know, treated like just a number. And, you know, Iâve been doing some writing lately, which has been happening mostly on LinkedIn about how I feel partnership programs should work. And I thought thatâd be kind ofâ I thought thatâd be kind of an interesting, uh, topic to dive into a little bit because, you know, when I was running my agency, I was in a few partner programs, right? And they were all kind of the same thing. None of them were bad, none of them were great. Like, there were, there were some things that were consistent across all of them, and A few had some unique features and unique things that they did. Um, most of those unique things that they did were more around, uh, swag that they gave out or opportunities at, uh, at different, uh, conferences to meet with people or to go have a dinner or a lunch, right? And those are all great things. Theyâre great things that create community. And Iâm huge in wanting to foster community and ecosystem. And I think thatâs a really important thing. So the first post that I wrote was about, um, about how the next era that weâre going to be in, in the WordPress space, isnât going to be defined by people who are just writing better plugins or better themes or better software around WordPress. Itâs actually going to be defined by this thing called alignment. Crazy, right?
Carl Alexander:
Yeah, of course.
Zach Stepek:
And, you know, for, for years weâve had this ecosystem and itâs evolved in these layers that are kind of separate. We have hosting, we have agencies, and we have product creators, and they all kind of work separately from each other independently, you know, and theyâre all innovating, but theyâre innovating in their, in their lane and Because of that, a lot of times we see these points of interaction where one of the layers fails because of friction with another one of the layers.
Sponsor Announcer:
Did Iâ
Zach Stepek:
so whether thatâs hosting having an incompatibility with how a plugin was built or a plugin having an issue in a specific way that an agency has implemented it. Right? Theseâ or, or an agency not necessarily fully understanding how a product that theyâve added to a WordPress site interacts with the environment in which itâs hosted. Like, all of these pieces, theyâre interconnected no matter what way we look at it. They all have to work as a whole in concert, like an orchestra. But we donât treat them that way as a community. Uh, so, you know, we have hosting partner programs that are just about what hosting companies we like, right? And as agency owners, we join these hosting partner programs because we want to eliminate risk for our customers and ourselves. And thatâs great. Thatâs, thatâs a big part of deciding who you want to partner with is eliminating risk.
Carl Alexander:
Yeah, of course.
Zach Stepek:
And, you know, the same on the, on the product side. Agencies choose products that make their lives easier and eliminate risk, right? They choose plugins or themes or SaaS products based on what makes their life easier and makes them consistent, consistently more money and with less friction. So what Iâve been thinking about as we were kind of moving into 2026, and somebody gave me trouble about this because I posted this post a week ago and they called it AI slop, which it wasnât.
Carl Alexander:
Yeah, thatâs going to happen more and more. Thatâs going to happen more and more.
Zach Stepek:
It really is.
Carl Alexander:
I donât think you can get away from that.
Zach Stepek:
And then they said, âAnd 2026?â Itâs February. And I appreciate that. I appreciate that that was some of the feedback that I got because I get it. I get that itâs weird for somebody to post something about the beginning of 2026 in February. Uh, Carl and I both did it this year.
Carl Alexander:
You know, whenâs the cutoff from the beginning? I mean, I donât know, February seems fine. Like, itâs not like the first 2 weeks of January are like busy for people.
Zach Stepek:
Like, no, I mean, no, not at all.
Carl Alexander:
Maybeâ I know, I know Americans have like a crazy work ethic and stuff, but itâs just like, I feel like the rest of the world just kind of like is slowly getting out of the holidays in the first 2 weeks of like January. Like, Iâm like, so itâs, you know, I mean, I was very, I mean, itâs a bit different for the programming side just because of all the AI stuff. Like thereâs a completely manic energy out there right now. That Iâm also like, you know, into, but itâ but I, I feel like if I look at it from like a normal trend, like, Iâm like, yeah, like first 2 weeks of January, like, donât expect much out of anything, you know? Like, youâreâ weâre still getting back into it.
Zach Stepek:
Um, I agree. Uh, so I mean, that was just a piece of feedback I got, and I expected somebody to say something about it. Um, I also used em dashes before AI made them an AI tell, which sucks cuz Iâve had to remove them from what I do and what I write. Yeah.
Carl Alexander:
I mean, yeah, I, Iâve seen some people that preface it like, I use em dashes, so like, you know, deal with it. Like, you know, so I feel like just, you know, you can do it at the end if you want, but itâs just like, I feel like itâs always better to preface this kind of stuff because people donât read to the end.
Zach Stepek:
Well, and I get that thatâs a tell for AI, and I get that having lists of 3 is a tell for AI, but unfortunately all these things that are considered tells for AI writing are also just components of good writing.
Carl Alexander:
Yeah, I mean, I did lists of 3s in my articles for fucking ever. Like I was just like, it canât be a list of 2, list of 4 maybe, but like anything more than that, like youâre probably too long. You know, like 3 is like, 3 is a good number. Like itâs just like 3 points, 3 arguments, 3 this, like 3 is just a really good number when you write. Again, like I, I think this is like just, I think you, youâre alluding to it, but itâs just like a lot of people complaining about this stuff just never wrote.
Zach Stepek:
Yeah, thatâs true.
Carl Alexander:
They just never wrote. Like, you, like, if youâre like, I mean, the em dash, okay, like, I never use em dashes, but like, but I definitely complain about like lists of 3 being AI slop is like, wow, like, all that tells me is you like literally never wrote anything.
Zach Stepek:
Yeah, I mean, whatâs, whatâs the 5-paragraph essay? What, what is the 5-paragraph essay? An introduction, 3 points, and a conclusion, right?
Carl Alexander:
Yeah, exactly. Like, itâs like mind-boggling to me. Like, thatâs why, like, Iâm like, I donât think this is like the own that you think it is. Like, I think you like, this is like you owned yourself by just like saying that stuff because like, I, it tells me more about you than about my thing. Uh, anyway, that one, that oneâs funny. That oneâs funny. Like, that one, I, Iâve never heard, I havenât seen it. Like somebody complaining about like 3 points. But if somebody told me that, Iâd be like, maybe you should read, uh, anything. No, but I forget what the, the book, the book is called.
Zach Stepek:
But like, the Elements of Style, or any, anything from Harvard Business Review, orâ
Carl Alexander:
yeah, yeah, Elements of Style. Like, Iâm just like, yeah, yeah, get out of here, get out, get out, get out, you know.
Zach Stepek:
So anyway, Apart from that though, the conversation around all of this is really great and, you know, really thatâs what matters.
Carl Alexander:
Honestly, thatâs what matters is the conversation.
Zach Stepek:
And what Iâm talking about in this first post was about, you know, creating strategic alliances in the, in the agency community and in the product community. So we have two partner programs at Bigsuits. Itâs not just an agency partner program. We also have a tech partner program. And those are plugin companies and product companies that we bring into our ecosystem as well, that we know their plugins work at scale. We know that people can trust them. Theyâre plugins and products that we would use ourselves. And so, you know, itâs, itâs all about connecting these things together. So infrastructure that performs under pressure, thatâs our job at BigScoots. Thatâs what we do. Thatâs what you do at Amir. Yeah, agencies building mission-critical experiences. Thatâs the whole agency role, right? Whether itâs a brochure site thatâs designed to drive sales and provide information or an e-commerce site thatâs doing, you know, $100,000 a day in sales, that is the goal. You know, we build mission-critical experiences for the businesses we work with and then product creators that are shaping what WordPress can do next. You know, folks like Alli, AlliWP, great product, great theme, pushing, you know, the block-first experience further than almost anybody else, in my opinion. Um, you know, these products are pushing what WordPress will become next, while WordPress is also pushing to what should be next as well. Things like collaboration and AI and MCP and all of the things around AI that are coming in 7.0. So, you know, really the whole point of this first article though was that we donât want a logo wall. Thatâsâ logos are great. We love having partners and their logos are awesome. Having them on the site, of course, it creates you know, this feeling of social proof, which is part of what a partnership program is supposed to doâ provide social proof both for the host or the partner company. Itâs kind of this letâs talk about each other agreement, right? But logo walls are just that. Theyâre a wall full of logos. You know, we donât, we donât only want to talk about marketing exchange, about co-marketing opportunities. Thatâs great. You know, it helps all of us to grow our businesses, but what really helps is strategic alignment across all pieces of the stack, all these three layers, right? Agencies reduce their risk, product teams innovate with confidence, clients experience performance gains, and growth from it all becomes sustainable. And thatâs really kind of the, the crux of the first post.
Carl Alexander:
Yeah.
Zach Stepek:
And so weâre talking about how building an intentional ecosystem, yeah, is whatâs going to define where the industry goes next. So I, I then posted the following week about how, um, there are some changes that Iâve been piloting around how we think about partnerships and I really want this conversation to continue with the community. Thatâs kind of why Iâm bringing it up here, because I want to make sure that this is something that, you know, the community is heavily involved in shaping. I, I think that what weâre trying to do is great, but I am biased. So yeah, of course, I want the communityâs opinion on what it is weâre building. So Um, and I think that this could be valuable to the industry as a whole, to the ecosystem of WordPress as a whole. Because if we have conversations about things that are truly transformative instead of just doing things business as usual, um, it helps all of us. You know, a rising tide lifts all boats, lifts all boats.
Carl Alexander:
Exactly. Yeah, of course. I love that saying.
Zach Stepek:
I do too. And so, you know, when weâre, when weâre looking at this, all these partner programs, like I said earlier, have a familiar playbook. You know, itâs affiliate incentives or free or discounted products or tiered support that, you know, weâll talk about. And then co-marketing. And thereâs nothing wrong with any of that. But it doesnât change the underlying business relationship at all. It doesnât change the agency. It doesnât provide transformative power to, you know, partner companies that are involved in it. Yeah. So extra income from affiliate commissions, theyâre great, especially when youâre growing your business. Right? Iâm not going to discount the fact that they have value, uh, but they shouldnât be the reason partnership exists. They shouldnât be the core reason. Theyâre a bonus. Yeah, um, you know, so thatâs, thatâs one piece. Uh, free hosting, also an awesome thing. You know, when I was starting my agency, we had free hosting. We used it. Um, yeah, itâs nice to have Did it provide us any strategic value? No, it reduced our costs by, you know, the cost of the hosting plan per month, which really was a drop in the bucket compared to, you know, the value that other things in that relationship provided. Um, now differentiated support, I want to talk about that for a little bit. Um, I have a problem with hosting companies offering a higher tier of support to their agency partners than they do to their customers. Um, Iâm not saying that there canât be any differentiation, but my point is that if you have to provide a higher tier of support to your agency partners than you do to your entire customer base, what that exposes is a problem with your support. Not a need for agencies to have deeper support, right? Itâs, itâs just thereâs, thereâs a, thereâs a standard for support. And if the better lane that youâre giving your agencies is significantly better than the core support experience, then thatâs just an indication you need to improve your core support experience. Not make it better for the agencies. Um, so, you know, the only difference we have is a direct Slack channel, uh, and all of our enterprise customers get that anyway. So itâs really not a differentiator, itâs just the same thing we give to larger customers that require that level of instantaneous support. So, um, So yeah, I mean, itâs, itâs a thing that I see kind of as a Band-Aid on a problem, that if you have to provide a differentiation to how youâre treating agencies in your support ecosystem, then I think that, thatâs showing some underlying problems that youâre likely ignoring. Now, not everybodyâs going to agree with me on that, and I know it. I know that thatâs, uh, a take that may be considered not only wrong by some people, but actually rude, I guess. But, you know, I just think that we should make support. It should just be great for everybody. I think thatâs the right way to move things forward as an industry. Support is where we fall over more frequently than not.
Carl Alexander:
And I feel thatâs like the reality of hosting. Yeah, itâs absolutely business.
Zach Stepek:
Absolutely. It is.
Carl Alexander:
Thatâs how I feel about like this is why I look at, you know, Laravel Cloud a lot about what, how theyâre handling, how theyâre thinking, well, what theyâre doing or slash not doing, which is because Laravel products have notoriously not had great support, which was fine when you manage your own infra. Uh, you know, if youâre using Forge or Vapor, you can always go in and fix things yourself. Um, itâs very different when youâre now a platform as a service and you donât have access to things, right?
Zach Stepek:
So yeah, yeah, itâs hard to self-serve in that kind of an environment, right?
Carl Alexander:
Well, yeah, well, yeah. And itâs, um, you know, like, yeah, so I feel they think they can be Vercel, but I feel like Vercel is more like the exception that makes the rule than, uh, than the other way around. Like, yeah, like, um, so like, Iâm always curious since, you know, we both have such a huge background in hosting. Um, like I was talking a lot about it yesterday at my serverless PHP talk because I think people arenât fully grasping, like even when youâre doing cost analysis, like just for hardware and stuff, like I, like, like I told them, like, uh, you know, Iâve talked with companies that do like a hundred, like WordPress companies that do very large CapEx per year. And they canât get servers right now. You know, they canât get servers right now. So itâs just like, yeah, you know, anyway, but itâs just like, itâs an example of just like insider knowledge kind of, um, that I, and itâs just really interesting because we have a lot of insider knowledge about this business and Iâm kind of seeing them, you know, it was the first year anniversary of Laravel Cloud like, uh, this week or last week. And it was just like, yeah, just thinking about how they do things. I mean, they, theyâre nice, you know, they did a Cloudflare had a really big outage last week and then they discounted 10% on their next invoice and stuff. Uh, so I thought that was like really good.
Zach Stepek:
And it wasnât even their fault. Like that was not Cloudflareâs fault that any of that happened.
Carl Alexander:
You mean Laravel Cloud, you mean, or Cloudflare itself?
Zach Stepek:
It wasnât Cloudflareâs fault that that, that, uh, that outage happened either.
Carl Alexander:
Um, yeah, but I, anyways, itâs, but I think itâs like interesting, you know, when, uh, to see like how they handled things. Like I shared that theyâre young, theyâre young product offering. Right. So itâs just like how they, how they deal with that. Uh, I hang out in their Discord a lot. Just trying to help people on the Vapor side a bit and just looking at whatâs happening in the cloud channels and stuff. But yeah, itâs again, but like you said, like I think, you know, the hosting is essentially a support business, you know, that I forget who told me, but I say it all the time. Like itâs just like, itâs a customer support business that happens to own computers and servers, you know, like, uh, itâs much more about customer service. Um, so yeah, how you make it consistent. I mean, even I struggle with Ymir, like how I want to do it, but my goal is to just funnel everything in Discord basically. Um, for now, and then do like higher, I think tiering support is interesting, at least on from my side, is just like, there is something about, like, Iâve spent, like, it happened again. I probably spent, you know, and it helps the product. So Iâm, Iâm not resentful about it, but itâs just like, clearly this person should not have signed up for Ymir. They werenât technical enough., I spent probably 10 to 15 hours helping them and then they just basically told me like, I love it, but like, I, you know, they want to set it up and then maybe theyâll come back basically. So like they were on the free trial and stuff. So itâs like, thatâs normal state of business. Uh, but thereâs something, you know, when you talk with bootstrappers about like support is definitely like one of those levers that you want to be way more careful about, like how you offer it, what you offer it, things like that, because again, itâs not sustainable. And having stuff, whether itâs automated, like, again, like, if I had more time, like look into automation, AI bots, stuff like that to, you know, have better docs that AI can read. And help people and things like that through like Discord channels and whatnot. Like thereâs a lot for me to do there, but part of it is to get me out of the loop. And then I like the dedicated channels a lot, like Slack Connect and stuff. Like I think thatâs a really good value-add offer for like higher tier ups. Like, hey, do you want to like have like DM access to me? Like, cool. Like thatâll cost you extra. Like, for example, like I think I think even for partners at hosting space and stuff like that, like itâs just like such a nice value add that, you know, like Iâm all for communication anyways. So itâs just like, I feel like anything that improves communication channels is great.
Zach Stepek:
You know, youâre a little bit of a different case than what Iâm talking about here because youâre a team of one and supportâs going to be hard as a team of one, no matter what you do., right? Um, but for larger teams, that differentiated support, uh, you know, sure, a Slack channel, great. Um, providing different support lanes that are completely separate from the standard support lane, just, itâs, itâs a symptom of a problem that is larger than just the need to show a partner a better experience, um, in my opinion. And then, you know, we talk a bit about co-marketing, uh, and I think itâs really the most meaningful traditional benefit of a partner program, um, because it tells stories, it shows alignment between the companies, it shows how two, or in some cases three or four companies, can combine their strengths to create an outcome, right? And those are all important things. I believe in co-marketing. I think itâs a huge, important piece. Yeah, but that by itself isnât, isnât a full strategy. Itâs, uh, you know, we talked about social proof and how it has value, but what, what actually creates impact? Impact is leverage. Leverage should make an agency ownerâs life easier, should remove their friction. It should remove decision fatigue. It should help them sell with confidence. It should strengthen their delivery and protect their margins. Thatâs the, thatâs the table stakes for any partner an agency chooses to work with. The partnership should help an agency delight their customers. It should be a force multiplier. You know, these are all things that I think are important. Deep, deep trust is important in partnerships. Itâs, itâs something that raises the standard on both sides. Itâs that whole rising tide thing again, right? And so And what Iâm building here, Iâm trying to think not perks, not tiers, not surface alignment, but this focus on collaboration, a focus on what the outcome of that relationship is. So I think thatâs really, really important too. So I wanted to bring all this up here because I wanted to have a conversation with the greater community. And I know that we have a great audience here. About what this all means, about what partnership means to them, because I may be completely wrong here. I donât think that I am, but do we ever think that weâre wrong?
Carl Alexander:
Sometimes.
Zach Stepek:
But, you know, itâsâ I donât think that Iâm on the wrong page here, but I want to know what the community thinks as a whole. I want to have a discussion about this because I think itâs incredibly important. As we continue to grow as an industry, as an ecosystem inside the overall web industry, we are being faced with more challenges, more disruptors than we ever have been, right? It had been business as usual for quite a while in the web industry. You know, we had a set of tools that we used and we had ever-evolving JavaScript frameworks that all did pretty much the same thing with varying levels of complexity that were all chasing the functionality of the Flex framework from Flash over a decade and a half ago. Um, you know, and we had all of these various tools and things that Um, weâre really just the same thing repackaged with a slightly different skin, slightly different API. And PHP itself hasnât drastically changed. Itâs, you know, it has changed, itâs evolved as a language, itâs, you know, able to do more now than it ever has. And the switch from, uh, the 4.x branch to 7 obviously was a gigantic landmark shift in performance. But we are faced with evolution at a level we havenât had in probably 15 years in the web industry right now. We have people who think that they can, you know, just vibe code an entire SaaS product and release it to the public. Like, this is, this is a reality that weâre dealing with, that people are vibe coding entire products and then releasing it and charging people for it and then disappearing in some cases because they donât know how to handle the support. They donât know how the code actually works. They donât know how to fix the bugs.
Carl Alexander:
Like, these are real things. Iâm way more skeptical about that stuff, honestly. Like, Iâm on X, the everything app. I want to use the same thing as Aaron Francis now, just to be like super ridiculous about Twitter, basically. But, um, because I canât take it serious. I canât take the name seriously either. Uh, but honestly, like, I havenâtâ like, you see people that like are basically posting this stuff, but But like, nobody is like, actually, like, you know, like, like, show me, show me the result, you know, kind of thing is just like, itâs not there, you know?
Zach Stepek:
I mean, all you have to do though is look at Product Hunt and AppSumo in the last 6 months.
Carl Alexander:
Yeah. But I mean, I think those businesses are under direct, like, I mean, um, whoâs AppSumo again? But he literally said like his business is like struggling, right? Like, yeah, Noah Kagan, like Noah Kagan literally said that his business is struggling, like, because thereâs too much crap on that. And too bad, like, itâs not the platform. AppSumo is not the platform it used to be.
Zach Stepek:
No. And itâs mainly because a lot of this stuff is just crap, AI-built crap that, you know, is the beginning ofâ
Carl Alexander:
but I think it predates, honestly, I think it predates AI.
Zach Stepek:
Like, itâs just like it made to a point.
Carl Alexander:
Yes. Like, Iâm inâ like, this is like, again, like, Iâm putting my like indie bootstrapper kind of like, uh, like whole thing hat on, but like even indie hacker and stuff, like, itâs just like, oh, itâs performance. Like, itâs just performance, you know? Like, itâs performance theater, you know? Um, like, like, my favorite takes is like the hard part of software was like, this sucks because Iâm an engineer, but like the hard part of software was never like building the software, right? Itâs the support. Itâs the marketing. Marketing is still hard. Marketing is harder than ever, if anything, because itâs like so much more noise. Like I think about it like, Amir, like I like, you know, I struggle to find places to talk about it. I, and if I try to talk about it, like I had a really bad experience on the Laravel Discord recently, because Iâm trying to help people and then I try to talk a bit about it, like on the DM side and then like I get trended with a ban, like itâs just like, itâs hard to like do this stuff. Like even the build in public stuff is like oversaturated. Um, and it doesnât really help. Like it helps in the sense of like. Enterprise donât die motto, right? Like the reason I got my partnership and I think people take me seriously at this point is because Iâve been like basically like hammering on it for like 6 years.
Zach Stepek:
Yeah, but you were building in public 6 years ago. Like that wasâ
Carl Alexander:
Oh yeah. Like itâs my, I didnât write my report yet, but itâs officially been like 5 years that I write reports. Like, uh, Iâve written like 95, 95, 96, like like Iâm close to 100, you know, um, but you know, that stuff I thought would do marketing for me. It doesnât, like it does some of it, but like that stuffâs hard. Like, like I said, itâs harder than ever. So itâs just like when I see this stuff, it, itâs just like I have like, as somebody thatâs been in the trenches and follows people that are kind of in the trenches and are one-person shops and stuff like that, that are the people that would vibe code stuff, like, um, it just doesnât work out in practice from what Iâm seeing. Like, thatâ I think itâs like, thereâs a lot of narratives like that are hard, right? Like, IBM lost 12% of its like share value when like Claude announced that it could like reâ cobalt code, except like IBM could already do that with Watson. Like, it was just like, right. Um, like then on Monday, there was on the, well, it got published over the weekend, but like there was this Citrine 7 paper where somebody was like saying like the economy is going to crash. And then like, it caused like a 10, like a 2% drop in like the stock market on Monday. Like, itâs just like, people donât underâ like, people are just like, because we donât know. And itâs so different and itâs so crazy that like people just react to everything. But the fundamentals that I see in practice is that yes, obviously this is a force multiplier. Like thereâs no question, but like it, but I havenât seen, like, thereâs another guy, uh, Josh Pickford, very successful, like entrepreneur. Like heâs done like a bunch of, of proâ like a lot of products. And he started a site that was like basically Dutch auctions. He would like, Heâs super good with AI. He would build a product in a week or two and then Dutch auction it. So you would take it off and then just like start marketing it. And he couldnât get, I think the last one, he got $3,000 for it. Like he couldnât, like the value of software goes to zero, right? Like itâs not that software engineering is worthless, but itâs just like, okay, cool. You have a product, but like it doesnât solve the marketing, the customer support, the, all of this stuff, like AI doesnât solve stuff for you. Like that stuff is still hard. Like itâs, itâs literally like the meme, you know, the meme with the guy with the gun behind you in space, you know, like that said, like, itâs always been like, oh, like marketing is hard. Like always been like this. Like itâs even harder than ever, you know? So itâs just like, it really is. Yeah. Uh, like thatâs what I hear about, like people struggling. Like when I was at CloudFest in Miami, like Iâm talking with the DNSimple CEO and his wife, whoâs like the director of marketing and stuff. And theyâre like, you know, like theyâre struggling with their funneling. You know, you look at Tailwind who like was going to go like under because like their docs was their funnel. Like itâs just like, thatâs the stuff thatâs like difficult, you know, like, like the software part, like the, you know, everybodyâs like freaking out about that, but itâs just like, Iâm just not seeing it. Like, Iâm not seeing like, oh, this is a vibe-coded product. Itâs like killing monday.com or Workday or likeâ
Zach Stepek:
I donât, I donât think any of itâs killing anything. I think itâs a team. It, thereâs, thereâs a combination of things happening right now. One, the fact that people are starting to think that they can do the job of, uh, of software engineering without any formal background in software engineering. Is devaluing the work of software engineers. And I donât think that thatâs happening as rapidly as some people are claiming it is, but I think that it is creating this false narrative where itâs now easy to build software. I mean, there were multiple Super Bowl ads about using AI tools to build software.
Carl Alexander:
Iâm still, again, like, I think itâs like Javonâs, like, paradox here. Like, I think it is making it easier to make software, but I think because we can make more software than ever, we just need people to be able to sort through that. Even if itâs just with AI and 5 agents running, like, itâs just like, look, Iâm, Iâm, Iâm using Codex 5.3 right now. Like, I just switched over and I still have to do architectural stuff with it. Like, Iâm like, why are you doing that? Why is this? Duplicated, you know, why is this code duplicated? Like simple stuff that like takes 2 seconds to review and see, right? And itâs like, obviously if you vibe code that youâre not going to get that, but thatâs why those apps fall over themselves really quickly because itâs just like that stuff matters still. What ended up, which, what sucks is if you like typing the code. Yeah. If you liked typing the code, which I did, but if anything, I feel more productive because Iâve always been a two-finger typer, so I never could type. So I feel like I write more code faster. But yeah, that stuff, thatâs why I think thereâs a lot of pressures like vibe-coded sites, but hosting, nobodyâs going to outsource hosting. I see, I see stuff on Twitter. Iâve had friends tell me like, oh, youâre just going to have Cloud Code, like connect to a server and set it up for you. Iâm like, do you really want to be responsible? Like, you think a company wants to be responsible for that?
Zach Stepek:
Like, like, like at the end of the day, like, itâs just like, I actually, Iâm aware of a couple of startups that are doing things like taking, uh, Lovable exports. And directly putting them on infrastructure, which is kind of cool.
Carl Alexander:
Like, thatâ yeah, of course, thatâs usefulâ
Zach Stepek:
is kind of neat. Um, you know, deployment tools that take these AI-generated applications and put them in a place where they can, you know, actually grow, um, I think have some value. But my, my point here was that, you know, weâre seeing this shift and it is more of a shift than weâve seen in over a decade and a half in the web industry. Itâs, you know, weâre not, weâre no longer just saying, just talking about a backend technology paired to HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. Weâre talking about those things being generated by these intelligent agents that we are driving.
Carl Alexander:
Yeah. I mean, thatâs probably iPhone release, App Store release. Or like dot-com kind of like level disruption kind of thing. I wholly agree. Yeah. Like, I think thatâs probably like the metric weâre looking at, but, you know, I read a lot of stuff and itâs like, you know, one of the, it was slightly depressing, but especially the title that his bunny was sick, but so he wrote a really fucking rough But it was like, it was the title was like, weâre no longer the smartest thing on the planet, basically. Like Iâm paraphrasing, which is not wrong, you know, like, but itâs, itâs, you know, like the, the trend is like, weâre not right. Like, but that doesnât mean that weâre like stupid either. Like it just means that thereâs something that can do a lot more than we can ever do, you know? And thatâs like enabling. To me, like, I donât know, like, Iâm enjoying it more than ever. But, but yeah, I think it causes a lot of disruption because, like, all the levers or where people think value is, is changing. Same way with software engineering, right? Like, itâsâ I think, you know, now Iâm starting to see graphs. I donât know how accurate they are or late, but itâs like engineering hiring is up for the past like 6 months, right?
Zach Stepek:
Absolutely is.
Carl Alexander:
So when it shouldnât be, right? So, um, because I think this is again the Jevons paradox. So like for, I think Iâve mentioned it twice basically, so Iâll just explain it for the listeners. But basically Jevons paradox is like, I donât know the name or if Iâm pronouncing it right, but basically itâs like, um, itâs a British economist, I think. But anyways, itâs during industrial revolution. And basically it was basically the paradox on how things, even though like things were getting cheaper and easier, like we needed more of it, like more workers, like, you know, like instead of like, you know, you had the industrial loom yet you needed more clothing than ever. Or like we, we had all these like accounting departments with all these people and then we invented Excel yet we have more people doing stuff than ever. Or like you think of Mad Men. And marketing, and now like you have more marketers than ever. And itâs the paradox of like how things become cheaper and more affordable and easier to do, yet we need more people than ever to do them. And I feel like Iâm a strong believer that this was published by like the Box, Aaron Levy, who talked about it, like Box CEO, but I really think think a lot about that because thatâs what Iâm seeing more than anything else. Like, I donât see companies that are like, oh, we need less engineers. Theyâre like, no, like, what we can do now is like way crazier. Like, more partnerships, more products, more this, more that. Like, we, we can do more. We need more. Like, we, weâre more enabled than ever. And then itâs, and itâs like, obviously you want to do more with what you have, but it but because the surface area of what you can accomplish as a company, as an individual, as everything has expanded so much, like itâs really like, it doesnât feel like you need less. Like, I wish I had more time. Like, I wish I had more time, more this, more that. Like, Iâve like, just for me personally, but for everybody that I see. And so itâs very interesting for that. Um, and the space. Basically, like, thatâs how I think about the WordPress space. And, you know, I donât think we need less websites.
Zach Stepek:
No, no, I think we, weâre going to continue to need more websites. Yeah. Um, and so for anybody who is interested, Jevonsâ paradox is, uh, as technology increases the efficiency with which a resource is used, the total consumption of that resource increases rather than decreases. Which is exactly what Carlâs talking about here with the need for more engineers because that resource is incredibly important in steering what these AI tools can do. That architecture piece is suddenly way more important than itâs ever been. Itâs always been important, but now we have these tools that require somebody to drive. Now, my pointâ My point in bringing this up though is that this landmark shift is going to accelerate development, accelerate business for agencies at the top end of the spectrum, the enterprise agencies that are already equipped to immediately start leveraging these tools. Uh, and itâs going to accelerate the efforts of developers, but From this community, we started as a, as a community for builders, right? Thatâs what Do the Woo started as, was a community and a podcast built around this concept of builders. And where does this leave the builders? Where does this leave the people who donât have the, uh, the background to utilize these types of tools?
Carl Alexander:
Are you leaving it open-ended or could I just give two cents? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, well, first I think itâs changingâ I think where itâs changing things the most is like education. Like, like boot camps to teach you React useless. Like, who cares if itâs React? Like, this is not important. Like, you know, nobodyâs going to watch it, like, a 20-minute video on a new React feature now. Uh, like, I, again, uh, I listen to Aaron Francis a lot, who does like a lot of educational material, and heâs like trying to pivot to products, but heâs trying to do a bunch of things. But I think heâs genuinely directionally correct. Like, even me with my blog, I stopped publishing articles like years ago because it was just like way, um, it was just pointless. Like, you know, one of my favorite, most popular articles was like an introduction guide to regex. But like, one, do you really need to know how regex works now? Like, probably not because like AI is super good at it. And honestly, AI can explain it to you better than I could. Like, itâs just a perfect tutor and stuff like that. So itâs not a diss on that, but my view is that itâs never been a better time to be a builder. Like, because the entry, the entry point is now just a prompt, right? Um, thatâs why I feel so enabled as a builder is because itâs just a prompt now. Obviously, like, you know, I love the, the, you know, like I charge a lot for my consulting rate. Right. And like, you know, and probably everybodyâs heard the plumber thing where he comes in and like fixes something. He turns a thing and heâs like, you know, fixes the thing and itâs like, itâll be $100 and itâs like, youâve been here 1 minute. Itâs like, yeah, itâs $1 for the minute and $99 for my knowledge. Right.
Zach Stepek:
So itâs just like, uh, Iâm perfect. The last 25 years of experience turning exactly this point in the pipe.
Carl Alexander:
Yes. But I really think about like video games and stuff like easy to learn, hard to master. Um, I think because of that, I think itâs never been a better time to be a builder because if you have an idea, you can get it done. And if youâre interested in learning on how to fix it, AI will help you fix it and teach you. How to fix it, right? Like if you, if you have like a vibe-coded Sass, for example, and itâs like slow, you know, or itâs like itâs falling over itself, like it can tell you whatâs wrong. Like obviously you have to have some architecture, but like itâs, itâs like great. Like sometimes I wish I had as much like of that ignorance, as I see like some people, some vibe, some 17-year-olds like vibe code stuff with no knowledge because they just like figure out different ways to approach the problem. I mean, it doesnât mean necessarily that the code they writeâ Iâm looking more at like design, like website design and stuff like that. But I find that very fascinating to me. But itâs so accessible. You know, like you, itâs a $20, you can get it for free potentially, or itâs like $20, you know, and, and you can get started. So I just, I just think that people, it goes back to what I was saying, which is like, it doesnât make the hard stuff go away. The hard stuff was never building the app. It was not the hard stuff even 15 years ago when I started. Marketing was the hard stuff and itâs still hard to market. Like I said, I think itâs harder than ever because the noise, the stuff that like finding channels, like all that stuff, finding people with all the AI stuff is harder than ever, you know? And I truly, truly think that. And I havenât seen anything in practice that has changed my view of that. Like, I havenât seen anybody thatâs like cracked marketing to a crazy aspect with AI now. I havenât seen anybody launch products and theyâre able, like I said, launch consistently products and like kill it. Like, itâs just none of that stuff is easy. And, and I see it from people that have followings, so itâs not like theyâre nobodies either. Like, itâs just like they have followers and stuff, and they still canât get that done. So itâs just like, but for me, thereâs a childlike love of it. Like itâs, like I said, itâs never been a better time because thereâs nothing stopping you. Like AI is like relentless, you know, like itâs, thatâs the crazy part for me because that, think of all the times you like, you like banged your head on a problem. Like for hours trying to fix something. And now somebody willâ some, some piece of software will just do that for you and you can just walk away. You can go to sleep. You can just go do something else while it tries to figure it out for you.
Zach Stepek:
Just doing it all in the background while you like get some rest.
Carl Alexander:
Yes.
Sponsor Announcer:
Yeah.
Carl Alexander:
Like itâ I have not been frustrated with software development the way Iâve been in the past since this has been around. So thatâs why I feel really positive about builders. Like Iâm super optimistic about it. Um, I just think itâs very, like weâve talked about, like it, it upends about things and it puts even more, and to like loop it back to your, your, your thing is that because thereâs so much AI slop, because thereâs so much like fakeness in everywhere because of it. Um, I think partnerships and partnership programs and like the human aspect, the human-centeredness of it is important because I think thereâs a shift back to that, shift back to, you know, in-person networking, in-person events, in-person this., because of that, right? And that affects partnerships too. You know, partnerships is about people at the end of the day, and AI focuses on that, right? it refocuses on the importance of that, I should say.
Zach Stepek:
Yeah, no, I think it really does. And I think that, um, where we are going as an industry You know, weâre, weâre getting these tools that accelerate innovation, which is great, but understanding how to utilize those tools becomes something the ecosystem has to figure out how weâre going to do effectively and at scale. And so, you know, it all comes back to this concept of how we partner and how we create these strategic alliances that help us grow, uh, because agency owners are in a sea of possibilities right now. So how do you pick through all of that possibility and find the right things to focus on? And now, how do you even just looking at the WordPress plugin directory, how do you look at 70 plugins that all do the same thing and pick the one thatâs going to operate at scale when millions of dollars are on the line? How do you do that? And so, you know, thatâs where ecosystem comes in, thatâs where community comes in. And I think those things are incredibly important as we move forward into this next era of what WordPress can be and what it can do. But not, not only that, but what the web industry can be and what it can do. So Really excited to get everybodyâs thoughts on this conversation. Um, you know, we were actually intentional about not wanting to do another episode on AI, and then we did another episode on AI. Itâs kind of funny how that works out.
Carl Alexander:
Yeah, itâs hard toâ itâs hard to avoid it.
Zach Stepek:
Yeah, itâs hard to avoid it. Um, so in the near future, uh, Iâve been having conversations trying to get us guests from companies like Vercel and Laravel and trying to get us more of a broad ecosystem. If you know people in those spaces as a listener, or if you are those people, please reach out that we are wanting to do that. And you can help. If you have ideas for what youâd like to hear us talk about in the future, let us know as well. If you think that weâre entirely off base, let us know that too. We want your feedback. We want to know what youâre thinking about these things because we know that weâre not the only ones in the industry having these thoughts and conversations. So feel free to, you know, reach any of us, either of us on our social media, and we will, we will be there to have that conversation and talk. But itâs been great, Carl, having this conversation with you again. Yeah, of course. Always talking about community and the importance of community moving forward. You know, I think that itâs going to be fun to see where we land in the next, in the next 6 months to a year. So, you know, keep an eye on this space because weâre going to be talking about it as it happens every month. Yeah, talk to you soon. Yep, awesome.
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