@DopeGhoti @Andrew How many characters would be sufficient for Mastodon to not count as ableist anymore?

If you say, 1,500, who or what says that 1,500 characters are sufficient to describe any and all images, but a lower limit is not?

For comparison, look at my cover photo. The one with the weird building. I have a post with just about the same image in it; here's the link.

In this post, the image has two separate image descriptions. One is in the alt-text. The alt-text is exactly 1,500 characters long, a bit over 1,400 of which are image description. And that's the short description. It doesn't even have room for any text transcripts. It actually isn't much more than an "alibi description". It's only there because many people on Mastodon demand there be a 100% accurate and sufficiently detailed image description in the alt-text of each image in the Fediverse.

Only that "sufficiently detailed" isn't always possible even in 1,500 characters.

That's why there is an additional long description in the post text. It's sufficiently detailed, as in, fully detailed. An image like this requires a fully detailed description. It comes with transcripts of all bits of text within the borders of the image, and it comes with all explanations necessary to understand the image and the description. It's over 60,000 characters long.

Yes, over 60,000 characters in one post. Your character limit is 500. Mine is over 16 million.

Oh, and yes, it's guaranteed to be 100% hand-written. It took me two full days, morning to evening, to research for and write the long description with literally absolutely no help from any AI whatsoever. In fact, I've described details that no AI on the planet will ever be able to see in the image.

So ideally, all Fediverse server platforms should have two image description fields for each profile image, one being the alt-text behind the image, one being a long description next to the image. The latter should not have an arbitrarily-chosen character limit.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #CharacterLimitMeta #CWCharacterLimitMeta #500Characters #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Ableist #Ableism #AbleismMeta #CWAbleismMeta
Universal Campus: The mother of all mega-regions

OpenSim's famous Universal Campus and a picture of its main building; CW: long (62,514 characters, including 1,747 characters of actual post text and 60,553 characters of image description)

Image descriptions are important in the Fediverse, at least if your posts have a chance to reach Mastodon. But is it only about having image descriptions in general? Is it only about having image descriptions at all? Or is it about image description quality as well?

Blind or visually-impaired users say that anything is better than nothing. But seriously, the image file name as the alt-text is useless. So is a copy of the post text as the alt-text; at least one mobile app for Mastodon seems to do that automatically. So is some gibberish written into the alt-text, just so that there's some alt-text.

So you write a short image description for your alt-text. That should be much better than nothing.

But then you're criticised and sanctioned because your image description lacks detail.

Since you can't or don't want to write a longer description, you leave that to an AI.

But then you're criticised and sanctioned because your image description is obvious AI slop. The AI is inaccurate, it hallucinates, it misidentifies things and it still leaves out details.

Okay, so you sit down and put quite some time and effort into a hand-written image description that's both accurate and detailed. At least you think so.

And still, someone may come and criticise and/or sanction you for having left out certain details.

If you don't fix your image description to their satisfaction, you're insulted as ableist and blocked very publicly so that as many other users as possible block you, too.

Now, minimum quality standards for image descriptions are evolving over time. What matters now didn't necessarily matter two years ago. Things that don't matter now may matter in two years or in five years. Even today, alt-text activists criticise image posts that are several years old for image descriptions that they consider less than optimal. This means the image descriptions that you write today must be good enough for as long as your image posts stay available. If they aren't, have fun going through all your old image posts, editing them and upgrading the image descriptions to the latest minimum requirements.

There's only way to be safe from Mastodon's alt-text police in the long run: First of all, you must educate yourself about all the rules and guidelines of alt-texts and image descriptions, and there are dozens of websites about these. You can't know beforehand which ones of these rules will be declared mandatory by someone from the alt-text police in the future, so you'd better follow them to a tee already now. Of course, when two rules contradict each other, you must know which one to follow.

Also, you must know that the requirements and quality standards for good alt-texts and image descriptions on Mastodon are different from the entire rest of the Web. What's good enough for the Web isn't necessarily good enough for Mastodon.

Lastly, you must know your audience. And normally, your audience can be anyone anywhere in the Fediverse or even on the Web. There are only very few places in the Fediverse where you can control who will be able to read your stuff, and Mastodon isn't one of them. You must know your audience, and you must at least be able to estimate what they know about the contents of your image, what they don't know and what they need to know. If your audience doesn't necessarily know what something is, explain it, but please do so in the post text and not in the alt-text! If your audience doesn't necessarily know what something looks like, but it may want to know, describe what it looks like.

As for my own images, my strategy is to write two image descriptions for each image. One is the short image description; it goes into the alt-text. I'm going to limit that to a maximum of 512 characters because Misskey and its forks delete alt-texts that are over 512 characters long. The other one is the long image description; it goes into the post text. The long image description is fully detailed, it contains all explanations necessary to understand the image and its descriptions, and it contains transcripts of every last bit of text anywhere within the borders of the image, readable in the image or not.

Posting memes is a bit easier. There is only one image description that's hopefully short enough to go into the alt-text. But I still need to explain a whole lot of things, and as I can't always rely upon links to websites like KnowYourMeme for explanations, I often have to write a whole lot of explanations into the post.

Ideally, the worst that could happen to me is being criticised for my alt-text exceeding 200 characters or my post exceeding 500 characters or being blocked for the latter. I reduce the chance for that to happen with a summary that includes a long post content warning with the rough length of the post and the hashtags #Long, #LongPost, #CWLong and #CWLongPost that can be filtered. I almost always add hashtags for folks to filter.

But I hope that nobody can say I haven't tried hard enough.

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #CharacterLimitMeta #CWCharacterLimitMeta #500Characters #CW #CWs #CWMeta #ContentWarning #ContentWarnings #ContentWarningMeta #Hashtag #Hashtags #HashtagMeta #CWHashtagMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta
Jupiter Rowland - [email protected]

Image descriptions are important in the Fediverse, at least if your posts have a chance to reach Mastodon. But is it only about having image descriptions in general? Is it only about having image descriptions at all? Or is it about image description quality as well?

Blind or visually-impaired users say that anything is better than nothing. But seriously, the image file name as the alt-text is useless. So is a copy of the post text as the alt-text; at least one mobile app for Mastodon seems to do that automatically. So is some gibberish written into the alt-text, just so that there's some alt-text.

So you write a short image description for your alt-text. That should be much better than nothing.

But then you're criticised and sanctioned because your image description lacks detail.

Since you can't or don't want to write a longer description, you leave that to an AI.

But then you're criticised and sanctioned because your image description is obvious AI slop. The AI is inaccurate, it hallucinates, it misidentifies things and it still leaves out details.

Okay, so you sit down and put quite some time and effort into a hand-written image description that's both accurate and detailed. At least you think so.

And still, someone may come and criticise and/or sanction you for having left out certain details.

If you don't fix your image description to their satisfaction, you're insulted as ableist and blocked very publicly so that as many other users as possible block you, too.

Now, minimum quality standards for image descriptions are evolving over time. What matters now didn't necessarily matter two years ago. Things that don't matter now may matter in two years or in five years. Even today, alt-text activists criticise image posts that are several years old for image descriptions that they consider less than optimal. This means the image descriptions that you write today must be good enough for as long as your image posts stay available. If they aren't, have fun going through all your old image posts, editing them and upgrading the image descriptions to the latest minimum requirements.

There's only way to be safe from Mastodon's alt-text police in the long run: First of all, you must educate yourself about all the rules and guidelines of alt-texts and image descriptions, and there are dozens of websites about these. You can't know beforehand which ones of these rules will be declared mandatory by someone from the alt-text police in the future, so you'd better follow them to a tee already now. Of course, when two rules contradict each other, you must know which one to follow.

Also, you must know that the requirements and quality standards for good alt-texts and image descriptions on Mastodon are different from the entire rest of the Web. What's good enough for the Web isn't necessarily good enough for Mastodon.

Lastly, you must know your audience. And normally, your audience can be anyone anywhere in the Fediverse or even on the Web. There are only very few places in the Fediverse where you can control who will be able to read your stuff, and Mastodon isn't one of them. You must know your audience, and you must at least be able to estimate what they know about the contents of your image, what they don't know and what they need to know. If your audience doesn't necessarily know what something is, explain it, but please do so in the post text and not in the alt-text! If your audience doesn't necessarily know what something looks like, but it may want to know, describe what it looks like.

As for my own images, my strategy is to write two image descriptions for each image. One is the short image description; it goes into the alt-text. I'm going to limit that to a maximum of 512 characters because Misskey and its forks delete alt-texts that are over 512 characters long. The other one is the long image description; it goes into the post text. The long image description is fully detailed, it contains all explanations necessary to understand the image and its descriptions, and it contains transcripts of every last bit of text anywhere within the borders of the image, readable in the image or not.

Posting memes is a bit easier. There is only one image description that's hopefully short enough to go into the alt-text. But I still need to explain a whole lot of things, and as I can't always rely upon links to websites like KnowYourMeme for explanations, I often have to write a whole lot of explanations into the post.

Ideally, the worst that could happen to me is being criticised for my alt-text exceeding 200 characters or my post exceeding 500 characters or being blocked for the latter. I reduce the chance for that to happen with a summary that includes a long post content warning with the rough length of the post and the hashtags #Long, #LongPost, #CWLong and #CWLongPost that can be filtered. I almost always add hashtags for folks to filter.

But I hope that nobody can say I haven't tried hard enough.

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #CharacterLimitMeta #CWCharacterLimitMeta #500Characters #CW #CWs #CWMeta #ContentWarning #ContentWarnings #ContentWarningMeta #Hashtag #Hashtags #HashtagMeta #CWHashtagMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta
Jupiter Rowland - [email protected]

@Roknrol Well, I'm kind of afraid of being sanctioned for alt-texts that lack text transcripts, even if the additional long image description in the post text contains them. I mean, the rule says that text must always be transcribed, and the transcripts must always go into the alt-text. That, and not everyone may want to wade through a long description of 20,000 to 60,000 characters to read the transcripts.

Also, I go as far as transcribing more than 20 individual bits of text within one image, only two of which are actually halfway readable at the given resolution. About a dozen of these bits of text can be found in an area that's five pixels tall and a dozen pixels wide in the image. The individual bits of text are so tiny at this resolution that they're invisible in the image. And yet, I transcribe them because, technically, they're still within the borders of the image.

But as long as you don't say I could and should try harder...

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Transcript #Transcripts
Netzgemeinde/Hubzilla

@Jecture It's hard to do that in the Fediverse if the only place where people know, much less care about images being described is Mastodon. I have to single such people out and mention them.

I don't think that I've explicitly been told to shorten my short descriptions in the alt-text and, at the same time, ditch the additional long descriptioins in the post text, at least not by blind or visually-impaired users.

On the other hand, I've been told by a neurodivergent user that they've actually read through a ca. 40,000-character image description of mine, and that they've really needed this level of detail of information to get the image.

I know that accessibility professionals recommend alt-texts to be 200 characters at most, and they don't even take long descriptions in the text body itself into consideration.

But my images are nothing like whatever may go onto professional websites or blogs. And if I take all the rules and guidelines for image descriptions into consideration at the same time (and I do, at least I try, even though they sometimes contradict each other), I can't possibly describe my images adequately only once and then in 200 characters or fewer.

Also, describing images for a professional website is different from describing images for corporate social media.

Which is different from describing images on Mastodon for Mastodon.

Which is different from what I'm doing: describing images in a place with virtually no character limits (seriously, I could post 24 million characters at once), but for an audience that's largely on Mastodon and living by Mastodon's culture.

And there are no guidelines for the latter, much less steadfast rules.

Seriously, a 500-character alt-text may be vastly too long for a professional website where it must not exceed 200 characters. The same alt-text for the same image may be criticised as insufficiently detailed when posted to Mastodon where the image should rather be described in 800-1,200 characters. Such are the differences.

Not to mention that there are no guides on how to properly and adequately describe images with extremely obscure contents (e.g. 3-D virtual world renderings) to a Mastodon audience that doesn't know diddly-squat about what the images show, but that may or may not be super-curious about it.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta
Netzgemeinde/Hubzilla

@Roknrol I don't post social media app screenshots.

When I post memes, I only transcribe the pieces of text that are important within the context, but I do transcribe all of them.

I hope it's okay to leave out bits of text that don't matter in this case.

On the other hand, when I post original images, I transcribe every last bit of text within the borders of the image that I can read at the source, regardless of whether it's readable in the image at the resolution at which I'm going to post it.

I hope that's okay, too. And I hope it's okay that these transcripts only go into the long image description in the post text and not into the alt-text where there isn't enough space for them.

Also, I've yet to find a way to correctly transcribe things like text in other languages or text in multiple languages or misspellings, seeing as text must normally be transcribed 100% verbatim.

And I wonder if I can get away with deviating from transcribing 100% verbatim in the cases of all caps, misspellings, multiple paragraphs, quotation marks in the transcribed text and the like.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Transcript #Transcripts
Netzgemeinde/Hubzilla

@Jecture I'm already taking tons of things into consideration when writing descriptions for my images, especially my original images.

Avoiding line breaks and keyboard double quotes in alt-text. Not exceeding 512 characters in alt-text because Misskey and its forks will automatically delete alt-texts longer than that (only from my newest image posts on).

How to describe positions. Shapes. Dimensions. Colours. People (in my case, 3-D avatars). Their gender. Their shape. Their skin tones. Their outfits.

Which texts to transcribe (in my case, literally every bit of text anywhere within the borders of the image). How to transcribe multiple-paragraph texts. Acronyms. All caps. Misspellings. Text in different or multiple languages (I'm still not sure how to do that in a way that neither clashes with "text must always be transcribed 100% verbatim" nor with "screen readers must be able to handle the transcript properly").

My audience (not my target audience, but whom I have to expect to be my actual audience). What they know about the topic that my images show (usually nothing). What they may want to know. How easy it'd be for them to obtain that information without my help (not at all).

Where I post my images. Where people will or may see my image posts. The cultural differences between the Fediverse and a) corporate social networks/media as well as b) "non-social" websites and blogs. The technological differences, e.g. character limits, their limitations or lack thereof and their cultural implications. Even technological differences within the Fediverse because I post my images somewhere that's very very different from Mastodon.

I'm working with over 50 different references for writing alt-texts and image descriptions; here's the list including links.

It takes me from hours to days to describe and explain one image, also because each one of my original images requires two image descriptions.

I'm actually working on gathering everything I know about alt-texts and image descriptions in the Fediverse in a wiki.

And yet, I've got the feeling that this event, if I were able to attend it, would render things even more complex for me and every single one of my previous image posts even more embarrassingly outdated than they already are.

I've got the image descriptions for a series of avatar portraits as works in progress since late 2024. With the extra knowledge from this event, I might have to largely rewrite them yet again and put even more work into them than I already did.

That is, on the other hand, I've got a feeling that "tackling social media" won't even touch the Fediverse. Or only Mastodon as if the Fediverse wasn't more than that.

No advice on how to describe images if your post ends up someplace where good, manually written, accurate, sufficiently detailed image descriptions are mandatory, and you're basically expected to flesh out the character limit of 1,500 per alt-text while only having 500 for the post itself. But if, at the same time, the place where you actually compose and post your image posts, does not have any character limits to worry about, so you do have the technical means to put a full, long, detailed extra image description into the post itself.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta
Jupiter Rowland - [email protected]

Every now and then I like to remind people that one way to respond to the lack of alt text on images on here is to politely suggest text that can be copied.

You never know if the person posting the image is dealing with physical or other challenges preventing them from writing the alt text. And some apps make this harder than others.

One response to this that came up once or twice has been: then people will just be lazy and never do it themselves.

Well, back to my first point, it may not just be laziness.

But even then, so what? You'd be doing it for the people who rely on image descriptions, not them.

#AltText #ImageDescription #accessibility #Alt4YouMeta

@Scott Jenson @Stefan Bohacek @Rosy This even raises quite a few questions.

When are you "doing it wrong"? What is the point at which you'll stop "doing it wrong"? What are the minimum requirements for, quote @Rosy, "good alt text"?

If you think you have the definite, all-encompassing answer, have you ever talked about it with someone, preferably with an alt-text activist? Because I'm pretty certain that their minimum requirements for "good alt text" and not "doing it wrong" are different from yours. Ask someone else, and their minimum requirements are different yet again.

Still, no matter how they define the minimum for "good alt text" and not "doing it wrong", you'll have to fulfill that to keep your dignity and your reputation, not to mention your reach.

This is why I try to play by all the rules when describing images. This is why I carefully choose between rules that contradict each other. This is why I take such a lot of things into consideration whenever I describe an image.

This, in fact, is why I haven't posted an actually original image in almost two years because the effort is so enormous.

And this is why I'm actually working on a wiki about alt-texts and image descriptions in the Fediverse. It'll have over 50 pages, and it uses more than 50 references all over the Web already now.

Now, what if I told you that you can even be lectured or sanctioned or insulted or blocked outright for not having good enough alt-text behind an image that you've posted several years ago? And that my images aren't auto-purged after a certain time?

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta
Netzgemeinde/Hubzilla

@Stefan Bohacek @Blorbo Admin Chicken Yes, I wish more servers had this rule and enforced it.

Officially appointed moderators only go by the server's written rules, and they only enforce them against local users.

The HOA, on the other hand, have some rules in their heads. Everyone has different rules. And they enforce them against everyone, even regardless of where everyone actually is. Like, they attack Friendica users for allegedly misusing the CW field because they neither know that these users are not on Mastodon, much less where they actually are, nor that Mastodon's CW field has been an abstract field on Friendica for seven years longer than it has been a CW field on Mastodon.

This is part of what makes the Fediverse a minefield once your messages start reaching Mastodon.

I can't say that I'll stop being so overly careful with everything and putting such a big effort particulary into image descriptions, summaries/content warnings and hashtags for filter-triggering purposes if more or even most Mastodon servers adopt and enforce this rule. The irony is that this rule actually protects my long hashtag lines.

In fact, rules like these also ought to include that nobody must be policed for writing "too long" posts because there are places in the Fediverse that neither have character limits to worry about nor a character-limiting culture.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #CW #CWs #CWMeta #ContentWarning #ContentWarnings #ContentWarningMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Hashtag #Hashtags #HashtagMeta #CWHashtagMeta #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #CharacterLimitMeta #CWCharacterLimitMeta
Netzgemeinde/Hubzilla