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Self-Love Deficit Disorder, Narcissistic Relationships

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/04

 The Making of Ross Rosenberg

Ross Rosenberg, a psychotherapist and author, redefines codependency as Self-Love Deficit Disorder (SLDD), framing it because of unresolved childhood attachment trauma. Merging personal experience with clinical expertise, he reveals how individuals with SLDD unconsciously gravitate toward narcissistic partners—a repetition of relational dynamics stemming from early emotional neglect. 

Rosenberg’s “dance” metaphor powerfully encapsulates this cycle: the codependent, guided by survival instincts, mindlessly mirrors the narcissist’s movements, eroding their own identity. He delineates specific codependent personality subtypes and advocates for trauma-informed psychotherapy—a deeper, more nuanced approach than conventional codependency treatments—to address core wounds like shame and self-abandonment.

Through his books, educational content, and therapeutic practice, Rosenberg equips clients to dismantle destructive cycles, challenge ingrained shame, and nurture self-compassion. His groundbreaking self-love recovery framework reimagines painful relational patterns as catalysts for transformation, fostering resilience, and authentic self-love to ignite enduring healing, growth, and empowerment.

Ross is also known for his YouTube channel, where his educational videos have garnered over 33 million views and amassed over 310,000 followers. Additionally, his podcast, Self-Love Recovery, is ranked among the top two percent of the most downloaded podcasts globally.

The interview with Ross Rosenberg centers on his insights and theories on codependency, which he redefines as Self-Love Deficit Disorder (SLDD). He delves into the origins, dynamics, and impact of SLDD, particularly in relationships with narcissists. Additionally, the discussion outlines the evolution of Rosenberg’s knowledge and expertise in this field.

Ross Rosenberg: How are you, Scott?

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: I’m doing very well. Today, I had a wonderful small-town Canadian experience and moved some plants; otherwise, it’s been a regular day. So, today, I want to start with the basics and build from there. That’s a good starting point because it will contribute to the series. Let’s start with the earliest influences of your professional contributions. 

Ross Rosenberg: I was born in 1961 in Chicago, Illinois. My dad was what you’d call a covert narcissist—controlling but subtle about it—and my mom she, a codependent, just bent around him, always trying to keep the peace. By the time I was six, I already felt like I barely existed. Nobody really saw me. I was constantly picked on, always hungry for some kind of attention that never came. When I hit 14, I started using drugs—just trying to dull everything. Selling and using them gave me this fake sense of being part of something. Like, suddenly, I had friends. But even then, deep down, I still felt utterly alone, numb, and honestly disgusted with myself.

It all came crashing down when I was 17. The dean at Hersey High, along with the school cop, caught me. I got expelled. That moment—it shattered what little was left of me. But things didn’t stop there. Just three months later, still 17, my parents had me committed to a psychiatric hospital that dealt with addiction and mental health issues. At the time, it felt like the end of the road…I had bottomed out completely. 

But strangely, it was also the start of something else. Those dark, awful days ended up pulling me into a place where I was supported enough so that I could bravely look inside the shattered pieces of my life and understand what my life had become. The shame, the emptiness—I stopped running from it and finally understood where it all came from.

But weirdly, that place—dark as it was—was where something finally shifted. For the first time, maybe ever, I was in a space where I wasn’t running or hiding. People actually listened. I had just enough room, just enough safety, to stop numbing, and I began to look at the wreckage I’d been dragging behind me. The shame, the loneliness—I could finally see them, not just feel them. And for once, I didn’t look away.

The moment I stopped denying all of it—who I was, what I’d done, how much I was hurting, and how much I just wanted to be loved and safe—came through this poem I wrote. It was about loneliness. First one I ever wrote. And it hit me. That was it. That poem cracked something open. It was the moment everything turned, just a little, toward healing.

Jacobsen: How did your military and academic years prepare you for this work?

Rosenberg: The Army gave me structure as a Morse code interceptor in Japan. Later, studying psychology at Towson State and Boston University, I learned resilience. My early career in Iowa, working with at-risk youth and addiction, was a baptism by fire. These experiences taught me that trauma isn’t a life sentence—it’s a catalyst.

Jacobsen: Take me through the trajectory of your career.

Rosenberg: After earning my master’s degree from Boston University, I began my career in 1988 as a psychotherapist at Youth and Shelter Services in Boone, Iowa. It was a baptism by fire—I worked with at-risk youth, mothers of sexually abused children, and individuals struggling with addiction.

Over the years, I held various roles, including foster care supervisor and program director. In 2003, I returned to my roots as a psychotherapist at Arbor Counseling Center, where I built a thriving practice. By 2010, I founded Clinical Care Consultants, a counseling center that expanded to two locations.

Jacobsen: How did the Self-Love Recovery Institute come to be?

Rosenberg: In 2012, I partnered with PESI, a leading mental health training company, to present my seminar, “Codependents and Emotional Manipulators: Understanding the Attraction.” Its success led to the publication of my first book, The Human Magnet Syndrome: Why We Love People Who Hurt Us, in 2013. The book became an Amazon bestseller and has remained popular for over a decade. My passion for helping others heal from codependency and narcissistic abuse led me to create the Self-Love Recovery Institute in 2016. This platform grew out of my work as a professional trainer and author.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What recognition have you received for your work?

Rosenberg: I’ve been honored with the Excellence in Mental Health/Distinguished Service Award from the Illinois Mental Health Counselors Association and the Outstanding Professional Counseling Publication Award from the Illinois Counseling Association. My YouTube channel has over 308,000 subscribers, and my podcast ranks in the top 2% globally.

My books, including The Human Magnet Syndrome and Codependency Revolution, have sold over 200,000 copies and been translated into 12 languages. These accomplishments are a testament to the impact of my work.

Jacobsen: How did your experiences shape you as a parent?

Rosenberg: Growing up without unconditional love from my father left a lasting impact. As a parent, I was determined to give you the love, respect, and protection I never had. Healing my own wounds allowed me to be the father you deserved.

Jacobsen: When looking at codependency from both personal experience and a professional, educated perspective, how would you describe the subjective experience without that knowledge? And how would you frame it from an expert’s point of view?

Rosenberg: That’s an enormous question, and I’ll try to condense it. Everything I know about codependency—or what I call self-love deficit disorder—comes from my history of falling in love with narcissists without realizing it at first. Once fully involved in a relationship, I experienced the inherent harm that arises between someone with a personality disorder, like narcissistic personality disorder, and another who is a caretaker.

After my second marriage ended in divorce, I was grappling with the pain of yet another dysfunctional relationship, and I couldn’t find a therapist who could explain why this kept happening. Why did I initially fall for someone who seemed so beautiful and fascinating, but so harmful? Through my journey, I developed the idea that codependents are unconsciously attracted to what is familiar and that codependents are caretakers. They are altruistic, patient, selfless, and, without realizing it, they are drawn to someone who is their opposite—selfish, self-centered, grandiose, and entitled.

During this harrowing and tumultuous time, I came up with a metaphor that changed my life and, apparently, the lives of many people globally who have read my book or been exposed to my ideas. That metaphor is that the codependent-narcissist relationship is like a dancing couple. The codependent effortlessly allows themselves to move in whatever direction the narcissist leads. The narcissist dictates the dance, and the codependent follows.

The leader needs the follower in any dancing couple, particularly one dancing the tango. This idea of opposite but matched personality types led me to understand that, because of the trauma codependents experience during childhood, especially in the attachment phase with their parents, nearly every codependent has a narcissistic parent. The impact of this on their development creates trauma that later manifests as adult codependency. So, the shortest answer to your question is: I came to understand codependency, and here is my definition.

It is a person who is attracted to a selfish, self-centered, entitled narcissist who always gives love, respect, care, protection, and trust, hoping it will be reciprocated, wanting it to be mutual, but it can’t be. It doesn’t happen, and they stay. The short version is that it’s a person who gives love, respect, caring, trust, and protection, wanting it to be mutual. It’s not, and yet they stay in the relationship. So, I created a straightforward explanation that would later resonate with people through the opposite dance concept of leader and follower, but also because it happens unconsciously.

We are repeating what we learned as children. Because of attachment trauma, we learned to be invisible, to be a trophy child, to be moldable. That’s how we received whatever love was available from the narcissist.

That attachment trauma is relegated to a part of our brain that’s offline, dissociated. I will wrap up this definition because I didn’t intend it to last this long. It’s an issue with the disparity of giving and receiving love, respect, caring, trust (L-R-C-T), protection, staying in that relationship, and following this inner compulsion, feeling of familiarity and safety with someone harmful to you. That is what I learned about codependency from my personal life. Then, I expanded upon it by developing more details and explanations with concepts and theories to explain to others what codependency truly is.

Unfortunately, I can’t give you a simple answer. That’s the best I can do for a brief response. People in this toxic dance, seeking love, care, trust, and safety, experience a form of self-erasure. What’s the word? Self-erasure.

Jacobsen: So, the metaphor of the dance. I’m imagining someone over time—depending on the individual—gradually turning into a kind of wraith or ghost, disappearing as they cater more and more to a self-absorbed person, not just in the normal sense that everyone has some degree of self-absorption, but in a pathological way. So what you’re saying is, you imagine that someone would progressively become dissociative.

Rosenberg: In other words, they disassociate from their emotions and, using your words, become ghosts. One thing I’ve explained in my Human Magnet Syndrome books, especially my most recent one, The Codependency Revolution: Fixing What Always Was Broken, is the very simple definition of codependency. And I’ll get to your answer in a second. The problem with the world’s understanding of codependency is that it takes a long time to explain and varies depending on who is presenting it.

So it’s giving all the love, respect, caring, trust, and protection, wanting it to be mutual, but it’s not, and staying in the relationship. What I learned, again through my personal life and then through my clinical practice, is that the personality type is independent. You can have the salt-of-the-earth dissociative kind of person who will be codependent.

You can also have an angry, controlling person. I call one the passive codependent, and I call the other the active codependent, who argues, tries to control the narcissist, and takes things personally. I’ve identified eight other codependency personality types. The reason this information is so essential is that many codependents are gaslit—the narcissist manipulates them into believing there’s something wrong with them.

For example, if someone is an active codependent, like I was, who argues and tries to get the narcissist to change, and the narcissist said, “Quit controlling me,” and you end up believing it, well, that’s gaslighting. I wanted people to understand that there are different types of codependence and other personality profiles so that you can identify with the disorder and not get lost in the personality type. I should also add that things like honesty, anger, drug and alcohol use, and marital or relationship infidelity are independent of the definition of codependency.

When you go to a doctor who wants to see if you have a specific medical condition, you need to have the right symptoms to be diagnosed and then receive the proper treatment. Well, I wanted to create something similar for codependency—a simple definition and an understanding of the different variations of what it might look like. These people are attracted to narcissists in this specific way. How bad can it get? I’m assuming this is a rated-G interview, so it can get bleeping terrible.

Pathological narcissists, as I explain in my books, have one of three personality disorders: narcissistic, borderline, or antisocial (what people often call sociopaths). They’re all different personality disorders, but they share a central narcissistic core. All narcissists will have an emotional reaction—a narcissistic injury—such as rage, contempt, or anger when someone gives them feedback, corrects them, or calls them out.

So, suppose a codependent is in a relationship and tries to stand up for themselves. In that case, there will always be a powerful reaction from the narcissist, designed to put the codependent down and stop them from wanting to take care of themselves while seeing the narcissist as more worthy than them.

That reaction can range from physical abuse to emotional abuse. It can include gaslighting, triangulating with other people, poisoning the minds of their children—there are countless variations of harm that a narcissist can inflict. 

Jacobsen: Is this a conscious process or more of a reactive one from the narcissists themselves?

Rosenberg: The essential similarity between all personality disorders is that the problem is so integral to the person’s overall personality that they don’t experience it as a problem. They don’t have the discomfort or what someone would call cognitive dissonance. It doesn’t feel like, “Hey, something’s wrong with me. I should get help.” They can’t see something wrong with them, so they blame the other person. Therefore, a very low percentage of people with these disorders seek help, as they don’t see themselves as the problem and instead blame others.

That makes them chronically and historically harmful, but they can only harm those who stay in relationships with them. This brings us to the human magnet syndrome. The codependent and the narcissist have this unconscious attraction—like a dance. It fits, and it feels like love to both of them.

The codependent, of course, is the one who is hurt the most and can’t escape, not necessarily because of what the narcissist is doing or not doing, but because they are terrified of loneliness, or what I call pathological loneliness. The pain and suffering are horrible, and they stem from the type and degree of codependency, or what I’ve named self-love deficit disorder, and the type of narcissism. Narcissism can range from sociopathy to levels of sadistic traits. You can have narcissistic personality disorder with varying degrees of grandiosity and entitlement. No matter the specifics, it’s incredibly painful and emotionally traumatic.

Jacobsen: What about practical tools? Things people can develop, like boundaries? How do you help clients realize boundaries are possible and give them tools they can take home to work on developing boundaries themselves in mild ways?

Rosenberg: Yes. Well, first, let me clarify something. The problem isn’t about boundaries. You can teach an SLD (someone who is self-love deficient and codependent) boundaries all day, and they can be a psychotherapist like me, a recovering codependent. No matter how brilliant you are at discussing and teaching boundaries, the deeper, unconscious elements of codependency—the parts guided by dissociated parts of ourselves—are still in control.

To understand codependency, you need to look deeper. Imagine a pyramid, which I call the codependency pyramid, or the self-love deficit disorder pyramid. At the bottom is the attachment trauma we talked about earlier. From that comes core shame, which is a fundamental belief—a belief that you are inherently unlovable or broken. From core shame comes pathological loneliness.

It’s this bone-aching, pervasive pain of feeling alone in the world, so much so that it’s physically painful. Then, from there comes this addictive compulsion to be in a relationship—an addiction. So, if we’re going to solve codependency, we can’t just address the symptoms at the top of the pyramid, which is what most books focus on. We have to go all the way to the bottom and address the attachment trauma, which isn’t accessible through talk therapy.

What I’ve done is create a 10-stage treatment program called the Self-Love Recovery Treatment Program that addresses the trauma, core shame, loneliness, SLDD (Self-Love Deficit Disorder) addiction, and all the associated traits and characteristics. This process takes anywhere from 8 months to about a year and a half because we’re not just teaching someone or handing them a book on boundaries. It’s about getting to that part of them that, no matter what, will sabotage their mental health and their children’s safety—something they can’t feel or know because it’s unconscious. So, in my counseling sessions with people in the treatment program, we talk about boundaries, which is an important subject.

But that discussion only comes when they’re ready and capable of understanding what they can do, fully aware of the countervailing forces that come with it. Setting a boundary with a personality-disordered partner will always result in a storm. There’s a lot more to it, but I’ll leave it at that because I know you have more questions.

Jacobsen: When you’re in a session with someone stuck in these relationship patterns, how do you engage in that treatment program even while they’re still in the relationship?

Rosenberg: Great question. I’ll never forget the time a friend of mine, who was an attorney owning several offices, came up to me—this was 14 years ago—and said, “Ross, Google’ bankruptcy attorneys Chicago.'” I did, and his practice was listed. I said, “Wow, how did you do that?” He replied, “Well, Google bought YouTube. I don’t know if you’ve heard about YouTube.” I said, “I have. It’s new.” (I’m dating myself here.)

He told me, “If you post YouTube videos, you’ll be out there on the Internet and rank high in SEO.” So, before I even wrote a book, around the time I was traveling the U.S. training therapists on codependency and narcissism, I started posting on YouTube. Long story short, my YouTube channel now has over 35 million views and 330,000 subscribers. I also have a podcast called The Self-Love Recovery Podcast, which ranks in the top 2% globally (250,000 downloads).

People find my content through YouTube, podcasts, and other social media platforms where I have a presence. When they discover a video or article, they come to my website because they hear me talking about codependency in a way no one else has before. I not only explain it, but I also explain it in a way that makes sense and helps them understand why they’ve spent their whole lives trying to get better but couldn’t.

If people can afford my rates, I encourage them to work with me in my treatment program. If they can’t, I have other educational and support products and services to help them. But it all starts with someone Googling codependency or narcissism and finding me. I thank my friend Dave for turning me on YouTube all those years ago because I don’t know what would have happened if I had never found YouTube.

Jacobsen: Do you think codependency, say, from the middle of the last century to now, if you put a line of best fit (ignoring any bumps that might appear in particular studies or meta-analyses), has been increasing, decreasing, or more or less stable among North American populations?

Rosenberg: Many people say narcissism is the worst it’s ever been. Others said—and this annoys me, though I try not to show it—”Everyone’s a narcissist,” which renders the term meaningless. In a book I wrote, I created a continuum that specifically defines what makes up a pathological narcissist and what defines a codependent. I explain that if you don’t meet that criterion, you’re just selfish and entitled, not a pathological narcissist.

Similarly, if you don’t meet the criteria for being codependent, it doesn’t mean you’re too selfless or giving. The idea was to encourage people not to overuse labels. While it hasn’t changed the world as I had hoped, the issue of codependency and narcissism has been relatively stable throughout modern history. Our understanding of these conditions and our ability to identify them have evolved.

Now, with the proliferation of information on narcissism, the world has been talking about it more. On the one hand, that’s a blessing, but on the other, there’s been a backlash. You can go on YouTube or listen to podcasts, and everyone has something to say—everyone claims to be an expert. With so much information out there, people often aren’t getting the definitive explanation, which is probably why my book, The Human Magnet Syndrome, has resonated. Those watching the video can see its cover here.

The book has sold 200,000 copies and has been published in 12 languages. I’m lucky; I never thought it would reach this level, but it’s done so well because it’s the book therapists give their clients to help them understand these concepts. It’s also the book that people who don’t have a therapist read to grasp these dynamics. So, codependency and narcissism have remained stable. Our understanding and sensitivity to it have made it seem more prevalent. 

Jacobsen: Ross, your journey from therapist to author fascinates me. You’d never written professionally before 2012, yet you’ve now expanded The Human Magnet Syndrome through three editions – each one growing substantially. Walk us through how that happened organically. Was there a moment when you realized, “Okay, I’m actually an author now”?

Rosenberg: Everything I’m involved with now sprouted from this chaotic yet meaningful blend of personal experiences and professional development. The journey has been unexpected, but it’s unfolded in ways I couldn’t have predicted.

Back in 2012, I was running a popular training session called “Codependents and Narcissists: Understanding the Attraction.” It was the most-attended course at our company. Then, out of the blue, the training company I worked for bought a small publishing house and suggested, “This is our biggest hit. You should turn it into a book.”

Me, a writer? I had never written a book before. But I figured, why not give it a shot? That first book, “The Human Magnet Syndrome,” was basically my PowerPoint presentation expanded into 160 pages. It wasn’t exactly polished, but it was a beginning. Five years later, in 2017, the second edition expanded to 250 pages. By 2024, the third version reached 350 pages—we even had to adjust the layout to fit everything in.

The funny thing? I never planned any of this. It just sort of happened. That’s how life goes, I guess. Nothing stays the same. It all just keeps evolving.

Jacobsen: How has your definition refined and evolved since you started entering the field?

Rosenberg: Not only do I figure things out through my experience (with me as my number one test subject), but I’m working with clients daily—well, Monday through Wednesday—and learning from them. That’s how ideas come to me. Many clients know this—I’ll stop mid-session, write a note down, and said, “Thank you, this is going to be a YouTube video.” They laughed and always feel good when they see the video because they feel connected to it.

So, it’s always evolving. This is a complex topic. It’s a landscape of information comprising many different realms of study—neurological, psychological, behavioral, environmental, and cognitive. I am growing and will probably keep developing until I stop, which is great because that’s how science works. Hopefully, someone will see my work and take it to the next level, and that’s exactly what I want. That’s how I know people are getting what they most need—through the evolution and growth of our understanding.

Jacobsen: What has surprised you about your findings in SLDD over time? What nuances have come up through evidence and realizations about personal experience?

Rosenberg: The nuances, yes. What surprises me are the subtleties that emerge in the evidence and the realizations that align with personal experiences.

I wish I were a psychologist. I have a master’s degree and a license, but I’m not a psychologist. Even if I were, I’m not prone to research. So the evidence I have—and its strong and profound evidence—is based on my 37 years as a mental health practitioner, my recovery as a recovering self-love deficient or codependent, and the feedback I get from other therapists. No one is telling me I’m full of crap or that I don’t know what I’m talking about. Trust me, if you’re talking about theory and diagnosis and making things up, other therapists are going to push back.

What has surprised me is that I keep learning—the evolution of understanding will probably never be complete, but should it be? I’m as much a scientist as I am an artist. In other words, I’m intuitive. I have this whole thing about art, which has nothing to do with this interview, but the intuitive part is that I’m always keeping myself open to new ways of understanding things. Plus, my ideas change. If there’s enough evidence—and evidence for me is what I see in the world, with my clients, and in the literature I read—I shift, I move forward.

I have had no major shifts in my thinking on this – and I don’t say this lightly, but the Human Magnet Syndrome isn’t just a theory, it’s an observable reality. Ask any codependent person: nearly every single one will admit they’re drawn to narcissists because of unconscious drives rooted in childhood wounds. The pattern is clear and demonstrable. My work hasn’t changed this fundamental truth; I’ve simply 

For example, in my book The Codependency Revolution, I discussed four codependency personality types. I didn’t know personality types when I first wrote The Human Magnet Syndrome. I remember thinking of someone in my family who was selfish, a pathological liar, and a manipulator—a narcissist. But she married people with personality disorders. I thought to myself, “Uh-oh, maybe my theory is wrong because how can she be a narcissist, and he also is a narcissist?”

That’s when the idea of personality types came up. This woman, despite being a pathological liar and manipulator, was always in relationships—primarily marriages—with pathological narcissists. So, she wasn’t a narcissist herself. That’s when I developed the idea of the active codependent, and it changed everything—active and passive codependents.

Passive is like my grandpa Chuck, the salt of the earth. Then I came up with the idea of “anorexic,” which is when people said, “After my horrible relationship with a narcissist five years ago, I stopped dating, and I’ve been fine since.” But they’re not fine because they dissociated from the romantic part of themselves, which is a fundamental part of humanity. They removed themselves from any potential for romance, love, or intimacy. And then, other personality types emerged. That’s an example of how the concept keeps growing and expanding as I learn more and try to help the world understand.

It’s no coincidence that my book’s title is The Codependency Revolution: Fixing What Always Was Broken. The world needs an explanation for this problem because a solution cannot exist without one.

Jacobsen: When you’re helping people frame this part of their life or helping them come to more profound realizations—about core shame, for instance, that they might harbor—what is some of the feedback you receive many years or even months later when they’ve been using your advice?

Jacobsen: That’s a great question. You remind me how damn lucky I am—how I’m living a dream. Over a decade later, I developed this idea and created my first presentation for other therapists. From then until now, I have been satisfied because I was able to turn my problems into something useful. By the way, I’m in therapy often, and I don’t plan to stop because that’s part of my understanding of both the problem and the solution.

However, that the world now has this information, and even though I may not be as “popular” or widely viewed as I was during my peak, I consistently get positive feedback. People across my work almost always said the same thing: “Thank you. Until I saw your video, heard your podcast, or read your book, I had no idea what the problem was. Now I know I’m not crazy.” And then they’ll joke about it. So, I’m blessed in that respect—to keep impacting the world and, hopefully, eventually create what will become standard knowledge.

I’m not there yet, but I’d like to get to a place where everyone knows that The Human Magnet Syndrome and The Codependency Cure best explain codependency. But I’m not retired yet, so there’s still more time.

Rosenberg: Ross, thank you for the opportunity and your time today. I appreciate it.

Jacobsen: Oh, it’s my pleasure. Thank you. Those were very good questions, and I hope they help you, your readers, and the community at The Good Men Project.

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