Imagine if US voters had picked Kamala Harris. She would have continued the Ukraine weapons support, she would have kept the strong alliances with Europe, and she would never have killed the Iran nuclear deal.
Together we could have forced Putin out of Ukraine, there would have been no new, wider war in The Middle East, and the NATO alliance would have been stronger than ever. And in that situation, I think our economies would have been considerably stronger too.
Populism derailed all that.
@randahl I... whut? Who was President in 2014? (Doubly applicable for both Ukraine and Syria.)
Which President did Denmark wiretap its EU neighbours for?
Which President limited the weapons range and aid for Ukraine?
Who is Jake Sullivan?
Who is Ben Rhodes?
etc. etc.
i still don't understand your point
i think you don't understand my point
you make a decision at every crossroads
you don't look at past crossroads and conclude the existence of crossroads are the problem, therefore all decisions now are as bad as all decisions then
right?
if you agree, then what are you trying to say?
@benroyce @jasper89 @randahl The OP romanticises this: "she would have kept the strong alliances with Europe". This is... not my desired outcome, regardless of who is your President.
(Not that I haven't made my peace with the cowardice of most of the EUCO. I'm not getting 🇪🇺 strategic autonomy if you ever have free elections again, someone like President Sexy Bateman will result in Merz & co. begging to go back to living in your basement fulltime, like the world's oldest hikikomori.)
@screwturn @Veza85UE @jasper89 @randahl
veza85UE doesn't care
they are vibing on european independence
which is fine
of course in their vibing they are saying some pretty fucking ignorant shit
but they don't care about the usa, it's a lost cause to them. which is again, fine. they should realize though they'll get pushback if they say stupid shit
if they don't care about the usa (again: fine), they should scope their words to european concerns only
@screwturn @benroyce @jasper89 @randahl
It won't last* and it's not going fast enough, but since you asked:
https://defence-industry-space.ec.europa.eu/eu-defence-industry/safe-security-action-europe_en
https://kyivindependent.com/france-replaces-us-as-main-intelligence-provider-to-kyiv-macron-says/
https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.html
* well, the digital euro might and some backup military infrastructure as long as Germany and co don't have to spend TOO much on it
Adopted by the Council of the European Union on the 27th of May 2025, Security Action for Europe (SAFE) is the EU’s new financial instrument designed to support Member States in joint investments in defence industrial production, with a focus on closing critical capability gaps.
@Veza85UE @screwturn @jasper89 @randahl
see i totally fucking love this, as an american
i'm glad europe is stepping up
but why can't you celebrate this without also understanding the fall of the usa is unfortunate
for you
if you want to vibe on "fuck the usa" have at it, but it doesn't impart any real meaning or rational concern
put it this way:
if you don't want to spend $500 billion also fighting the USA, as well as russia, you're not so happy that the usa is going rotten
@benroyce @screwturn @jasper89 @randahl
I do want to spend most of the 14 TRILLION euros sitting unused in 🇪🇺 bank accounts on never having to give a single shit about who your President is. On projects like this:
On IRIS2, on ISR. On nukes. Whatever it takes.
The opposite of love isn't hate.
(Most tankies have instant recall of both the most arcane details about your politicians and entire episodes of that shitty laughtrack sitcom from the 90s).
It's indifference.
the point of history is to teach us, not for us to wallow in it
i agree with you we shouldn't litigate the past, we should live in the present and focus on the future
however!
all those who didn't vote, or voted for MAGA, need their fucking faces rubbed into what they did
the present we live in is a direct consequence of their very recent choices
asshole entitled nonvoters and sadistic stupid MAGA need to feel that burn
for some fuckwits, this is the only way they learn
I understand where you are all coming from.
I do not see this as productive.
I see no one mentioned Gaza.
The reality is that systems did not give good choices. To say otherwise is to deny the real issue.
Saying the path not taken would have been better seems moot.
Passion harnessed should be pushed toward the future, not used to calcify the past.
We can do better. We should do better. So let's do better. Please.
we can do better when people vote
and if they didn't vote due to entitlement and indolence and toxic idealism airhead bullshit, we have a right to call them out
it is not possible to move forward without identifying our failures
so if you look away from that, you're a force for the status quo
i don't think you are for the status quo
but i do think your instincts here are not as noble as you think
nonvoters are stupid losers helping fascism
say it with me
taran you know me
i yell at everyone
that's not a virtue
but it is something like a virtue if it focuses attention on what needs to be done
it needs to be done
you can't have the future we both want without fighting our failures
it is not a noble instinct to not fight them
it is an oversight of a tactical necessity, an oversight that sabotages our goals
@benroyce @Enea90 @randahl I cannot tell anyone else what to say or do. I hold no moral high ground over anyone... I am imperfick.
I cannot in good conscience yell at people for making what I perceive as mistakes. I cannot tell them what they did wrong when I myself am uncertain.
All I can do is *ask* people to try to do better as I do. Politely, respectfully, factually.
So I do. And I listen.
So I am sorry for injecting myself where that does not seem welcome.
that's your way. it's a perfectly fine way. i respect it
you don't have to respect my way
but i will speak in my defense:
we don't have the time
if someone needs a kick in the ass, i will kick them in the fucking ass
the house is on fire, it's not time for chit chat
nonvoters need to learn to fucking #vote
nobody has the time for the 10,000 years of respectful dialog it would take to motivate some hopeless lumps to understand their inaction only aids #fascism
The nasty rhetoric. The accusation of fascism or supporting it.
I was respectful. I have moved on.
I have seen too often this sort of thing. Too often. And when I have said something, the rhetoric spews out. The insults. The value signaling they demand in kind.
It looks a lot like MAGA to me, just to the left.
So. Good luck. I will be where my input is valued, not where I am insulted.
You think that yelling at people who could have voted, and claim to be on the left, but didn't vote and got us THIS, is the same as what the fascists have already done?
Like, my dude, just canceling USAID has already killed nearly half a million people
How are these two things equal?
@screwturn @knowprose @nikatjef
careful
taran expects respect. like he respects the disrespect of nonvoters
@screwturn @nikatjef well, we are just full of assumptions, ain't we?
If you guys want to be assholes, fine. That's on you. Someone mentioning temperance is an issue for you? That's on you.
None of you are qualified to assess anyone's political positioning other than your own. None of you have the right to demean others.
That's not politics. That's human communication 101.
Yelling at people is not how you change their minds. It's how you calcify them.
That's on you.
Don't split.
This has become a honeypot for me.
Thank you.
or coddle nonvoters and think that means anything
there is no respecting disrespect
but some people have a convoluted idea of what disrespect is
disrespect includes validating and enabling the lying rationalizations of racists, misogynists, transphobes... and the heartless lazy nonvoter who sits and watches the bigots seize power and does nothing but masturbate their ego in mindless cynicism
disrespect does not include calling out such disrespect from the nonvoter
@knowprose @[email protected] @Enea90 @randahl pointing out to unrepentant Dem supporters that the politics of the least worst genocidal corporatist is not really ok, always gets them shouting at you.
Apparently we are tankies etc because we will not vote for genocide, however bad the alternative is. And you can note you understand their position but they will never even try to understand yours. Because they are always right. Apparently.
Randahl Fink
Jurjen Heeck 🍋
Julian ♪🌻🥥🌴♫
Nick44 🇪🇺 🇮🇹
Veza85UE
ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES
jasper89
Humphrey Archer
Martin Schröder 🇺🇳
Enea Lecas
Taran Rampersad
James Wells
JimmyB (he/him)