wakest likes your bugs ⁂Feb 17

I don't think people here realized yet how much development has sped up in the "atmosphere*"

I fear for the future of the fediverse if we don't get our shit together in some key areas. The way the lexicon system over there allows interoperability between distinct types of data and interface is really showing now that the developer ecosystem is picking up.

*The network comprised of different stuff that uses AT Proto

Show threadwakest likes your bugs ⁂Feb 17
I have been watching both spaces for many years (almost the beginning of fedi) and Bluesky when it was just a discord room before Jay was chosen. There is a major shift going on where some of the ideas that have been talked about in various shapes across various communities are being implemented with nice interfaces and able to be used by "normal people" aka not people who know how to patch their Linux kernal.
Show threadwakest likes your bugs ⁂
Shout out to WAFRN (@admin) and @anewsocial for taking the uncomfortable position of straddling the space inbetween protocols. I think this is truly the strategy that is going to be needed if we want to "win" the push towards an open social web for the whole internet.
Feb 17 at 12:02pmWeb
Show threadwakest likes your bugs ⁂Feb 17
I will say here again I am very much on team fediverse and the anarchist anticapitalist free culture side of networks. Bluesky has some "help" with dirty money vc bullshit. There are many things Bluesky (the company) is doing that is awful (like verifying ICE ffs and deleting Palestinian accounts) and those are things I have been continuously pointing out as well.
Show threadwakest likes your bugs ⁂Feb 17
Bluesky also has its roots in other anarchist alternative networks. It takes a lot of inspiration from the core architects being involved in SSB (Secure Scuttlebutt)
Show threadwakest likes your bugs ⁂Feb 18
The fediverse is anticapitalist I shout from the tallest mountain. The fediverse is explicitly an anarchist project I whistle into the wind. The fediverse is not the protocol, it is not a technology, it is an ideology above all that human communication should not be controlled by companies or oligarchs but by our friends and neighbors.
Show threadLucid00Feb 17
The SSB inspiration is why I placed my bets on AT Proto over ActivityPub. I'm more in favor of a peer-to-peer distributed web than a federated one, but if I had to go with federated I'll take the one that uses PKI for identities.
Show threadDoug WebbFeb 17

@liaizon this story feels a lot like the solid project https://solidproject.org/

Big splash at the beginning, some nerds get involved... but it's been years now, and when I tried to actually use one of the apps using it, UX was atrocious and I had to join a matrix room to get it working. Now I know I'm not the l33test hacker, but come on!

Solid: Your data, your choice - Solid Project

Solid is an evolution of the web by its creator Sir Tim Berners-Lee. Solid realizes Tim's original vision for the Web as a medium for the secure, decentralized exchange of public and private data.

Solid Project
Show threadDoug WebbFeb 17

@liaizon I honestly feel a little bitter. I know I haven't been working on the protocol, or committing to repos, but I've done a lot of advertizing and advocacy over the years. In the faith that the developers were acting in our interests...

And I know they have been! I don't want to sound ungrateful.

Ach I don't know. Just feels a bit like I/we wasted (some of) our time.

Show threadRosanoFeb 17
@douginamug @liaizon bsky is already usable by normal people imo, probably will get better from here
Show threadDoug WebbFeb 17

@rosano @liaizon and this really is a success story AFAICT!

Anyway, before Facebook closes shop, we need all the horses in this race to giddy up.

Emotionally, Fedi will always be my horse, but I'm OK if another "wins".

Show threadRosanoFeb 17

@douginamug @liaizon bluesky and fediverse can be interoperable through bridges, so neither needs to 'win'.

at the same time they're both kind of shaped to be different things: one is a "social networking layer" and one is a "social networking app" on top of a more general app developemt substrate

Show threadikuturso 🇪🇺Feb 17
@rosano @douginamug @liaizon whether or not the protocol allows for federation they're basically just a centralized platform though. That has let them avoid much of the confusion people have with federation but if they were to ever fulfill the promise of being decentralized they'de have to tackle that issue just like fediverse platforms have to.
Show threadwakest likes your bugs ⁂Feb 17
@ikuturso @rosano @douginamug a lot has changed in recent months on this front.
Show threadikuturso 🇪🇺Feb 17

@liaizon if you're just referring to there finally being at least one example of all the pieces of the puzzle being run third-party (or close to that) etc. like @rosano seems to be suggesting I think these are still baby steps especially if we are talking about regular people actively using and understanding in significant numbers.

@douginamug

Show threadikuturso 🇪🇺Feb 17

@liaizon @rosano just to give some examples of the issues end users face even on ATproto when there's decentralization:
- where should I register is still a source of confusion
- you will still run into https://bsky.app/ links that you need to figure out can be accessed through your own app whatever that may be
- your provider going down will still cause you to lose your data unless you've been making backups

The more complex architecture adds even more potential sources of confusion IMO

Bluesky

Social media as it should be. Find your community among millions of users, unleash your creativity, and have some fun again.

Bluesky Social
Show threadRosanoFeb 21
@ikuturso @liaizon just learned that tangled is also hosting their own pds in finland (so you can sign up with them directly if you don't want to use a bsky handle). maybe social coding hub is not for the average person but seems important imo https://blog.tangled.org/6-months
6 months of Tangled

a quick recap, and notes on the future

Show threadRosanoFeb 17
@ikuturso see blacksky https://blacksky.community or read https://blog.mauve.moe/posts/decentralized-social-media
Blacksky

Decentralized social media built for community power, culture, and collective freedom.

Blacksky
Show threadwakest likes your bugs ⁂Feb 17
lol cool cool
Show threadwakest likes your bugs ⁂Feb 17
I hope you don't mind @nicobao I federated your reply over here. As the cofounder and CTO of a company "Agora helps people overcome disagreement and find consensus, for more democratic and efficient decision-making." I would recommend doing some research into the ideologies that underline all of the decentralized protocols that exist and where they came from.
Show threadNicolas GimenezFeb 17
@liaizon you're taking this WAY too personally, while we don't even know each other. I am very much entitled to my own opinion, btw, cofounder of Agora or not. I am not an anticapitalist anarchist, fine, so what? What the heck is this ad hominem attack? The whole point of Agora is to get people to talk to each other, people who usually don't appreciate each other, without trolling, and finding common ground. Your very reaction shows exactly why I build it.
Show threadNicolas GimenezFeb 17
@liaizon as of the underlying protocols, again you don't know me, so stop the ad hominem attack, it feels like harassment. I stand with what I say. The very reason why you're here saying you prefer the Fediverse underlying ideology of the protocol is PRECISELY because it's not the only one. Lots of libertarians in the early days of the internet and still to this day. You despise these capitalists I know. But they have the right to exist you know?
Show threadwakest likes your bugs ⁂Feb 17
@nicobao you involved yourself in this discussion by quoting my post and calling me an extremist. I'm not taking it personally anymore then you are here. Glad to have a public discussion about the ideological basis of protocol alignment!
Show threadNicolas GimenezFeb 17
@liaizon I never called YOU an extremist. I called the ideology you mentioned "anarchism, anti capitalism" extremist. It is objectively extremist since it's far left. OWN IT. Your problem is taking it as an insult. It is not an insult for me. As we discussed on Bluesky it is simply not my cup of tea. And what I dislike the most in these ideologies is precisely what you showcased here: mob mentality.
Show threadmacFeb 18
@nicobao @liaizon ah, replying to a weird political jab with some calm discussion around decentralization is... *checks notes* ad hominem! cool!
Show threadAnton ⁂ Feb 17
@liaizon @nicobao nonsense neo-liberal unpolitics

Believing that the systems we have established to channel disagreement into Not Murder™ will somehow always inherently cease to function if consensus is impossible. While also allowing democratic mechanisms that ensure Not Murder™ to be undermined by never allowing the replacement unpopular policy arrangements, through consistently calling for moderation whenever anyone suggests that the status quo needs fundamental change of any kind whatsoever
Show threadpancakes🔜BedFeb 17
@liaizon "extreme ideology" like thinking genocide bad hmm... 
Show threadNicolas GimenezFeb 17
@squeakypancakes @liaizon this is defamation. I was talking about anarchism and anti-capitalism. Not Palestine. Being extremist can be good, it's just being on the extreme of the political spectrum. But the spectrum can move too. It is not an insult. You guys are mobs, it's insane. Where is civility?
Show threadpancakes🔜BedFeb 17
@nicobao @liaizon civility is protecting your systems of oppression
Show threadNicolas GimenezFeb 17
@squeakypancakes @liaizon what am I oppressing by saying anarchism and anti-capitalism is an extremist ideology? It's far left. Far. You guys are oppressing ME
Show threadNicolas GimenezFeb 17

@squeakypancakes @liaizon And even if I'm wrong and it's not extremist. What I am oppressing by saying those words and barely disagreeing with you? (though this was a post on Bluesky I was not even talking to you)

You guys need seriously introspection

Show threadAdrianoFeb 17

@nicobao @squeakypancakes @liaizon

Just trying to help you out here:
- you came in to quote toot aggressively and have mentioned the (part of the?) Fediverse's "extreme political ideology" it makes you run away,
- its mob mentality,
- how when people say stuff about you it's defamation and extreme and people need introspection,
- it is harassment,
- we guys are oppressing you,
- we guys are mobs,
- it's insane

but on the other hand, when you say stuff it's "what am I oppressing?"

Show threadNicolas GimenezFeb 17
@adriano @squeakypancakes @liaizon the only problem I had was misinterpreting my point and saying I'm pro genocide or stuff like that. It's ok to disagree with me on anarchist/anti capitalist and protocol stuff since that's what I called for.
Show threadrakooFeb 20
I'm really curious about this discussion: what wrong with the extreme left ?
Show threadNicolas GimenezFeb 20
@rakoo nothing per se
https://fosstodon.org/@nicobao/116087391559624629
Nicolas Gimenez (@[email protected])

@[email protected] @[email protected] fair enough! Drama over. I'm happy to discuss protocol philosophies. I think the activity pub approach to funding is probably the most ideologically pure as ideally social protocols are supposed to be public good. Like water infrastructure. So it makes sense that it's co-owned. Where I disagree is that I think it's hard but *possible* to involve for-profit incentives in a way that doesn't prevent the network from flourishing.

Fosstodon
Show threadMcNeelyFeb 20

@nicobao @rakoo damn if only there was some way to structure actual conversations online instead of interacting with others as caricatures... /s

(Yes I am familiar with Agora)

Show threadJay Grant 🏳️‍⚧️Feb 17

@[email protected] tell me you've never experienced oppression without saying you've never experienced oppression

If people talking offense to the words you publicly posted to the Internet is oppression, you need to grow the fuck up and look around

@squeakypancakes @liaizon

Show threadvepř jako pepřFeb 17
@nicobao @squeakypancakes @liaizon the concept of extremism is moot in a headspace that sprung from monarchism and might makes right
Show threadvepř jako pepřFeb 17
@nicobao or at least it should be defined by ones internal compass, in which case anarchism is close to home and by no means extreme
Show threadDevine Lu LinvegaFeb 17
@liaizon "I don't want to be on the same instance as ICE"
"You must be what people call an extremist"
Show threadNicolas GimenezFeb 17
@neauoire @liaizon this is defamation. I was talking about anarchism and anti-capitalism. Not Palestine. Being extremist can be good, it's just being on the extreme of the political spectrum. But the spectrum can move too. It is not an insult. You guys are mobs, it's insane. Where is civility here? It's supposed to be part of the moderation rules btw.
Show threadDevine Lu LinvegaFeb 17

@nicobao @liaizon My making fun of your use of extreme is merely pointing out something I find a bit.. intense.

From where I'm standing, the agency that is afforded to instances in comparison to AT's centralized DID model, is not an extreme position but the barest of minimum, a baseline for communication networks.

There is just no way that your sentiment that you'd rather "run away" from a place that is explicitly going the other way from crypto investment wasn't going to be perceived as a leveled moderate opinion..?

Show threadNicolas GimenezFeb 17

@neauoire @liaizon that's a fair point and I do respect the Palestine argument. I didn't even know this information until OP pointed it out. I fully respect this take and I do not consider this extremist, and even if I did well we can discuss it normally.

My problem is my initial tweet was reacting to the anarchist/anti capitalist/anti VC ethos which is way more objectively, an extremist PoV (which is fine. Just not my cup of tea).

It's a misunderstanding.

Show threadDevine Lu LinvegaFeb 17
@nicobao @liaizon It is, no worries X) It honestly didn't even register to me that someone could take offense to anarchism, so I went straight for the other points, but I get it. It's got a bad rep.
Show threadMaltimoreFeb 18
@neauoire @nicobao @liaizon
the way this discussion went gives me hope for humanity (not /s, i'm serious)
Show threadsɹɐʎA xɘlA 💻➡🗑Feb 17
@liaizon Keep on running buddy
Show threadraphaelFeb 17
@liaizon looooooooool, how do people keep finding new ways for telling even harder on themselves? XD
Show threadNicolas GimenezFeb 17
@liaizon this is harassment.. you're getting your crowd to shit on me and misinterpret my words. I never said anything against Palestine. Anti capitalism and anarchism is by definition a far left ideology in pretty much every democracies world wide. This is just facts. I'm entitled to my opinion, so what? You guys are acting like mobs.
Show threadMatt HallFeb 17

@nicobao @liaizon

A mob. We're acting like _a_ mob.

Anyway, you took the original words out of context. No one said ANARCHISTS rule.

They said they preferred the anarchist anti-capitalist _nature_ of federated networks.

If you think those are the same, you might've earned some of the traffic you're getting.

Show threadNicolas GimenezFeb 17
@401matthall @liaizon yes collectively you're behaving like one. And considering your last words, you're basically saying I deserve a torrent of tweets making me look like a fascist pro-genocide asshole just because I have differing opinions on technicalities of social protocols.
Sorry but if that's how you think a healthy community should function it's a bad look for ActivityPub.
Show threadMatt HallFeb 17

@nicobao @liaizon

You didn't express differing opinions about social protocols. You expressed a strong dislike for extreme political ideology.

...

What're we arguing about here?

Show threadBiciFeb 17
@liaizon I think Bsky/atp has already won the protocol war in the sense that it will be the dominant mainstream federated social media platform of the future (unfortunately). I think there's a few reasons why this happened. one is that it was a closer like for like X/Twitter replacement during the musk takeover and only had a single instantiation at the time vs Masto/fedi having a bunch and needing an explainer about them. I also think that therev was a decent amount of FUD that was put out at the time about fedi being confusing that hindered its adoption. lastly I think "big" accounts were put off by the idea of server level defederation. Someday I think someone will write the post-mortem of the Twitter succession crisis and I feel these 3 things will be key points for why bsky gained momentum
Show threadwakest likes your bugs ⁂Feb 17
@Bike I mostly agree about the reasons you mention here. I guess the part that I am uncertain is what exactly "won" will look like. I don't see the current fediverse going away, but I do fail to see any path at this getting mainstream adoption like bluesky is currently getting. and that narrative concerns me. I think there are still avenues that must be taken to work together on a shared future path.
Show threadBiciFeb 17
@liaizon for me both protocols have very different success conditions. In both cases having more users off the main platforms of tiktok, Facebook, Instagram, etc is a condition. but for bsky I think it looks like total users but for fedi in think it's number of servers too.

I think that the difficulty of deploying servers was part of the reason we didn't get larger adoption. I think what fedi is great at -smaller communities having both internal and external conversations - was hampered by those groups needing to have a server deployed. The communities that would have benefited went to discord instead, and the people whov wanted microblogging wanted universal reach.

I dont know how solveable this problem was for fedi given "it's too hard to make a webserver" has been a problem since geocities.
Show threadBiciFeb 17
@liaizon ultimately I think we will come to regret letting the opportunity for a freer social internet slip thru our fingers in 2022. but I'm also just very pessimistic about ATP and their relay-centered architecture
Show threadikuturso 🇪🇺Feb 17

@liaizon @Bike seems like the "mainstream" is still very much TBD. In the big picture it has almost no adoption, is losing active users by the day and all the supposed other applications for ATproto are virtually unused currently.

5 million MAU really isn't much and the startup is also probably going to have to find more funding soon.

Of course it's possible that all the excitement leads to newly found success but it doesn't seem like there's anything suggesting that is an inevitability.

Show threadJulien ColombFeb 17

@liaizon @Bike
Na... bluesky will eventually entshittified at some point and mastodon will still be there.

It is not something we have to win, I am pretty happy that my mastodon feed is nazi-free, I am pretty sure it would be different there (but it will NOT go and check).

I got discussions here I never had on twitter (even when twitter was good).
The philosophy is different, and if it means it cannot win the game, then I will be happy losing.

Show threadKrazovFeb 20
@jcolomb @liaizon @Bike I guess, I see it similarly. Twitter was an (unplanned) experiment of a virtual space for everyone, and now we know it doesn't end well. Fediverse and whatever Bluesky is becoming (Atmosphere?) serve different groups, which can, thanks to bridging, communicate, so that's sort of win-win.
Show threadJulien ColombFeb 21

@Krazov @liaizon @Bike

no sure about the win-win.

"communication" definition spread both to personal communication between human beings (mastodon) and organisation communication to human being (publicity and PR, what twitter allowed). when the second is preventing the first, you loose your win-win.
The question is whether these bridges can do that or whether my mastodon will continue to be mostly human interactions (because the absence of algorithms would prevent efficient PR) ?

disclaimer : there is probably more to it, first thought on a saturday morning and not an expert.