@benroyce this reminds me of a recently published argument between Chomsky and Moinbot on whether what happened during the terrible Rwanda wars was a genocide or an atrocity.The letters between them really sounded like they fell out. I think there's a bit of pride in there too.

Appreciate I'm massively simplifying their correspondence. And I say that only to somewhat mitigate fear of trolling, which further highlights your point.

@TenPastTwo

i won't troll you but i will castigate you

never mention #Chomsky again

nevermind him licking #Putin's boots over the invasion of #Ukraine

Noam is in the #EpsteinFiles defending #Epstein

he did this *after* Epstein was revealed as a pedophile human trafficker

Fuck #NoamChomsky

And I am not attacking the left, ironically, in contradiction to what I have said above:

A pedophile/ #imperialism apologist is not of the left

Chomsky is not of the left

Not anymore at least

@benroyce

Ok then, if chomsky isn't on the left because he's a pedophile supporter (agreed) then people who eat other animals aren't on the left either because they perpetuate a globalised violent system of exploitation torture and murder for their own taste preferences in direct contradiction of left principles of justice equality and fairness.

See what non-human victims go through
VVV
https://nationearth.com

#Left #Leftism #Vegan #Veganism #TotalLiberation #Anarchism #Veganarchism #LeftistUnity

@ambiguous_yelp

interesting hijacking angle

and while i have no problem with your agenda, the way you hijack this discussion isn't going to win you any converts

@benroyce

This is the larger point I was trying to make and why I don't consider what I did as hijacking

You start off by saying the left must be united against the right, but then you carve out a specific exception for when we should shun those on the "left". When people "divide the left" they do it for principled reasons not because theyre opposed to any sort of collaboration. In fact it is the whole idea of "leftist unity" that is idealist, the idea that eveyrone on the left shares fundamental values is just naive and kind of patronising. Really the labels left and right aren't very useful at all they are broad tendancies and don't point to any particular ideology or set of foundational beliefs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-jwkMEGHG8

@cy

That's the problem though, "those who like bacon" are holding others in bondage, and I'm not going to throw pigs under the bus by ignoring that violation of liberty for my own benefit

I'm an intersectional anarchist, I dont compromise on anybody's rights when organizing: no exceptions. We need to start as we mean to go on otherwise we will reproduce systems of oppression forever

See what non-human victims go through
VVV
https://nationearth.com

#Speciesism #HumanSupremacy #Pigs #TotalLiberation #Intersectionality

@cy

It's like youre saying to me "you have to work with the racists and the misogynists because youre all oppressed under capitalism so you have to swallow your pride and put aside your differences" and its like no, if their values include the oppression of others then it would be counterproductive to include them in any liberatory project

#Racism #Sexism #Capitalism

@ambiguous_yelp @cy

Movements that work together succeed

Movements that shit on their ideological neighbors fail

If you just want to be a judgmental edgelord on social media, by all means enjoy yourself

But that's all you're going to get with your approach

@benroyce

Succeed at what? If the liberation isn't total liberation then its a failure. The means don't justify the ends. I will not ignore the oppression of non-human animals or of any oppressed group for some arbitrary notion of success

#TotalLiberation #Anarchism #Veganarchism #Veganism #Speciesism #HumanSupremacy

@ambiguous_yelp

That's fine. I have no problem with your goals

I would get investment into artifical meat vat tech and make it cheaper than animal meat and succeed thataways

But you don't actually care about your stated goals

All you care about is posturing on social media

@benroyce

Non-human victims can't wait for artificial meat to become less expensive than flesh. Maybe it will never happen, but if someone needs an identical replacement to flesh products to stop slitting an innocent creatures throat they are not an ally, and they would continue to perpetuate speciesism either way. There is no nutritional need for artificial meat either since all essential nutrients can be found on a plant based diet.[1]

The fact is people can choose to stop killing innocent animals who have done nothing to hurt them today, and every day they don't is a day creatures needlessly are tortured and killed for their selfish preferences

[1]
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39923894/]

#Vegan #Veganism #Speciesism #HumanSupremacy

@ambiguous_yelp

i proposed a coherent effective solution

and you respond exactly as i describe you: a posturing outrage performer

you're nothing but a dopamine addict

in one sentence i proposed a plan that gets closer to your stated goal than 100,000 posts from you doing high holy outrage. why don't you get that? because you don't care about your own goal. you care about going online to make yourself feel good

i am a more effective proponent of your goals than you are

it's a fucking joke

@benroyce

The idea that investment in meat alternatives will make more people stop eating flesh is an opinion you hold not me.

Plenty meat alternatives already exist and yet they are still not prevalent, they are just another product that is sold alongside flesh products - they are largely regarded by people who eat flesh as unhealthy and ultra processed

As long as people regard other animals as objects to be exploited then they will exploit them

Veganism is about much more than diet. Even if I were to accept your premise that meat substitutes at cost would end animal slaughter for meat, it wouldnt end slaughter in dairy or eggs, or for animal testing, or for leather fur silk down wool or in horse racing or dog racing or aquariums or bullfighting.

To oppose all this requires a consistent and principled opposition to exploitation that doesn't come by giving someone a cheaper burger.

#Veganism #Vegan #Speciesism #HumanSupremacy

@ambiguous_yelp

i was going to write

"don't forget to masturbate your high holy superior ego and ignore an actual effective plan to achieve your stated goals, thus revealing how fake you are and what you really only care about"

but i see you're way ahead of me

🤣

@benroyce

Sure anyone who disagrees with your prescription for how speciesism should best be dismantled is an idiot because you must have the best idea having thought about it for 2 minutes.

#Speciesism

@ambiguous_yelp

that's the saddest part: what you just wrote is 100% true

some random asshole on mastodon just proposed a way to achieve *your* goal, after 3 seconds of mental effort, that is 1 billion times more effective than your "go online and shame people to inflate my ego" bullshit

you don't actually care about killing animals

it is merely an excuse for your real goal, which is showboating your vast "moral superiority" for the dopamine high

you're a poser. a fake

@benroyce

I know that I care about the killing of animals and I also don't believe that investing in meat alternatives is the best way to save them

It is possible for someone to just genuinely disagree with you about a strategy, especially towards a goal that you have no personal interest towards.

I fight speciesism the root of carnism.

My activism is not limited to discussions but it would always be a bigger part that investing in technology

Imagine if you told a slavery abolitionist they need to invest more in automated machinery to change the economic reality and make slavery unprofitable - Firstly it wouldn't change fast enough and there would be no guarantee you could even do it ever, secondly it wouldnt address the core of the rot which in this and my case would be bigoted discrimination

#Racism #Speciesism #Carnism #Activism #Automation #Slavery

@ambiguous_yelp

i support this cause

i agree meat is murder

what i oppose is you, personally

because when i propose a serious *effective* means to achieve *your* goal, you ignore it so you can go back to morality flexing

you only care about the flexing, you don't care about helping animals

i fear you will abandon this cause if you aren't allowed to be a poser online, and had to do the real work required to achieve your *stated* goal (which is not your real goal)

you're just an edgelord