William Lindsey 
This long thread will not be to everyone's taste — and that's understandable. But for those who follow discussions of what influential religious groups are doing — are doing with effects on all of us — it may be of interest. The thread focuses on a recent Vatican statement closing the door, yet again, to ordination of women as deacons, a decision that has ramifications for how women are treated in society in general, given the influence of the Catholic church.
Christine Schenk writes:
"The statement published Dec. 4 is rife with dubious theology, not only about women deacons but about the nature of salvation through Jesus Christ. Consider this proposition:
'The masculinity of Christ, and therefore the masculinity of those who receive Holy Orders, is not accidental, but is an integral part of sacramental identity, preserving the divine order of salvation in Christ.'"
https://www.ncronline.org/opinion/womens-role-church-remains-hot-potato-vatican-cant-seem-handle
Women's role in the church remains a hot potato the Vatican can't seem to handle
Christine Schenk asks: Is the Holy Spirit telling us that female exclusion from ordained ministry and church decision-making is no longer acceptable and that something needs to be done about it?
"'To alter this reality would not be a simple adjustment of ministry but a rupture of the nuptial meaning of salvation.'
The gist of course is that women are not men and therefore they cannot be ordained.
This line of thinking echoes the same problematic theology that appears in other church documents denying ordination to women."
"Are Christians saved by maleness or by the Word of God, enfleshed in Jesus, human and divine? Jesus' maleness is irrelevant to our salvation. Framed more positively we need to understand 'Christ as representative of all humanity, not of biological maleness,' to quote Mary Grey."
Mary E. Hunt writes,
"In 2025, Catholic theology still requires a penis for full personhood. …
There’s something blatantly wrong with the thinking that cements women’s secondary status in the Catholic Church. These are matters that theologians debated 50 years ago. Today, the prejudices have been so thoroughly debunked that there’s nothing left to argue."
Marking a New Low in Catholic Theology, Church Still Considers Women Inferior to Men
Pope Leo XIV ordered the release of the Summary of the Study Commission on the Female Diaconate last week, marking a new low point in Catholic theology. The second commission that convened on the ordination question, whose work has been opaque, decided that women cannot be deacons, either as the low
"Imagine someone in law or medicine trying to argue in 2025 that fully qualified women, often the best and brightest students, cannot practice their chosen professions because of their gender. …
Today, barely a quarter of U.S. Catholics attend mass on a regular basis. Many have long since taken their leave for greener spiritual pastures."
"Given this latest decision by the Study Commission (and the long standing data linking decisions like this one to disaffiliation), I predict that many more Catholics will look for wisdom and spiritual care well beyond the confines of the Magisterium until the Pope and bishops are left talking to themselves while the work of ministry goes on without them."
"The synod’s Final Document, which Pope Francis approved on October 26, 2024, fails to address reproductive rights, effectively preventing discussion on the subject from taking place in the implementation phase.
Statistically speaking, participants in the synod likely have benefited from contraception, had abortions, or needed medical care for pregnancy loss."
~ Manuela Tironi
#Catholics #SexualEthics #SexualMorality #contraception #abortion #women
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https://theoverreachmonitor.substack.com/p/what-pope-francis-synod-did-and-didnt
Where the Synod on Synodality Fell Short
I’ve worked at the intersection of faith and reproductive justice for a while, and I’ve been tracking the Vatican’s promises long enough to be skeptical — but when Pope Francis announced the Synod on Synodality back in 2021, even I felt hopeful.
"In the U.S., 63% of Catholics believe abortion should be legal in all or most cases, and 99% of Catholic women have used birth control at some point in their lives. And considering that 1 in 4 abortion patients is Catholic, there is no denying that abortion is a part of the life of the church."
#Catholics #SexualEthics #SexualMorality #contraception #abortion #women
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"The truth is that the church hierarchy’s absolute ban on abortion is only about 150 years old — and we know how old the church is, right? The Catholic church’s so-called 'constant teaching' on abortion has changed significantly throughout the ages. It was not until 1869 that the Catholic church first prohibited abortion at any stage of pregnancy, and the teaching was not codified until 1917."
#Catholics #SexualEthics #SexualMorality #contraception #abortion #women
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"If the synod’s implementation phase is serious about its call to encounter each other across lines of difference, then we must talk openly and honestly about abortion, acknowledge its moral complexities, and listen to the wisdom and lived experiences of the many faithful Catholics who have abortions. The church cannot be open to the workings of the Holy Spirit on some issues while silencing conversation on others."
#Catholics #SexualEthics #SexualMorality #contraception #abortion #women
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M.S. Bellows, Jr.@wdlindsy I'll be curious to hear Maddow's reaction to this (because she recently recommitted to Catholicism).
RainbowFrog@wdlindsy
Yes ! Yes !! And yes !!!
These recent (renewed) positions of Vatican on women ordination AND reproductive rights (contraception and abortion) are what made me perplexed, a few days ago, about Rachel Maddow's position, if it was hers and not some distorted or misinterpreted news 🤔
Bernard Vall@wdlindsy I didn't know the absolute prohibition on abortion is so recent. Could you please point me to some reading on the subject I seem to recall that Medieval theologians believed "ensoulment" did not take place till around 6 weeks. ( I think that was Aquinas view but I may be mistaken ) As it is over 40 years since I read about it
Possumantha@wdlindsy the Bible has an abortion tow to: Numbers 5:11-31
Nicole ParsonsThe date of that ban has significance. 1869.
The question of slavery was decided in the same decade in the USA.
The Catholic Church benefited enormously from the trade in slaves.
Forced birth policies function as bulwarks to the enslavement of girls & women, because few women want to abandon their children when they attempt escape.
Marriage, before no-fault divorce, functioned similarly, forcing women to stay in abusive marriages.
Slavery & religion are intertwined.
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CaptMorgan@Npars01 @wdlindsy Slavery, religion, misogyny, transphobia, homophobia and the patriarchy are all intertwined. They are different heads on the same monster. The patriarchy depends on the exploitation and subjugation of women, and it uses religion as a tool to achieve it. Questioning gender roles threatens the rigid classification that the patriarchy uses to perpetuate cis male power. And slavery is just more subjugation in service of a single male patriarch
2/
There's falling birthrates, yet little discussion of why.
Why would women marry & have children when society, religion, & the law treat it as the social equivalent of selling oneself into slavery?
Marriage could be seen as partnerships of equals.
The Catholic Church could choose to welcome female support & leadership as equals, but instead retains its dinosaur ideas about dominance, hierarchy, & property.
Without a belief that all are equal in the eyes of God, what are women but slaves?
@Npars01 The truth is Jesus counted Mary as one of his disciples and likely considered them all equal. Are there any gospels that attribute any of his teachings directly to misogyny? They made it all up
3/
Women as property is an economic practice.
https://www.epi.org/publication/economics-of-abortion-bans/
The history of abortion bans in the USA arose from policies that wanted a maximum number of children from women slaves.
https://www.aclu.org/news/racial-justice/the-racist-history-of-abortion-and-midwifery-bans
https://www.ms.now/the-reidout/reidout-blog/abortion-bans-slavery-rcna35885
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/02/opinion/slavery-abortion-rights-laws.html
The Catholic Church's refusal to consider women as equals with agency & autonomy becomes part of the GOP's 'War on Women'
The economics of abortion bans: Abortion bans, low wages, and public underinvestment are interconnected economic policy tools to disempower and control workers
Abortion has long been framed as a cultural, religious, or personal issue rather than a material “bread and butter” economic concern. After the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, more economic policymakers have been emphasizing the issue as a pressing economic concern. In perhaps the first public comment on the issue by a major political figure, Secretary of the Treasury Janet Yellen noted: “eliminating the right of women to make decisions about when and whether to have children would have very damaging effects on the economy and would set women back decades” (Guida 2022 This direct connection between abortion and reproductive access and economic rights is critical (Banerjee 2022). This report argues that abortion access is fundamentally intertwined with economic progress and mobility. Specifically, in states where abortion has been banned or restricted, abortion restrictions constitute an additional piece in a sustained project of economic subjugation and disempowerment.