@spaceraser @jlw_the_jobber I've only ever used base FreeBSD and I've encountered some absolutely horrific, destructive errors over the years, and certainly desktop use is a challenge, even if it's as good as it's ever been. (There are still a wheelbarrow of issues I could bring up.) Honestly I used to use NetBSD as my desktop in the 90s and I had less pain.
Nowadays, maybe try OpenBSD? It won't get you ZFS and that's a showstopper for me, of course.
What's at the core of your wanting to really try FreeBSD? Maybe there are other ways to scratch the itch.
For me, the perfect OS was Debian before the systemd cult dominated the project. My most common desktop in the house today is Debian on ZFS with sysvinit. The six of us here use it as our primary workstations. We do have two FreeBSD desktops used regularly for various purposes, and it's getting better, but the regular bleeding over it is a challenge.
In the end, use something that gives you pleasure. Life's too short.
@spaceraser @jlw_the_jobber @mason
Having run Linux 25 years ago, I have a much higher tolerance for incomplete hardware support and other glitches. 😂
@rl_dane @spaceraser @jlw_the_jobber @mason
The first laptop I used Linux on, I had to install a custom kernel to get the keyboard, battery level reporting, and touchscreen working.
Installing an OS without a working keyboard was certainly difficult… since that device had only one USB port so I couldn't both have a live USB and an external keyboard plugged in. Except with my cheap USB hub which only had 2.0 speeds, meaning the install was incredibly slow.
@rl_dane @spaceraser @jlw_the_jobber @mason
Believe it or not, that's the device where I did the bulk of my distro hopping.
@amin @spaceraser @jlw_the_jobber @mason
Those are the kind of experiences that put hair on your... neck. XD
@rl_dane @spaceraser @jlw_the_jobber @mason
Mmmmm, maybe, if I hadn't left out crucial information:
It was a Micro$oft Surface Laptop.
@amin @spaceraser @jlw_the_jobber @mason
I recall! Properly cursèd machine!
@amin @spaceraser @jlw_the_jobber @mason
Or... just use it as firestarter, or something. ;)
@amin @spaceraser @jlw_the_jobber @mason
Honestly, the #Linux kernel is just such an amazing accomplishment.
I don't understand why userspace has to be such a gigantic ball of wax, and constantly changing, and subject to such insane politics and infighting*.
Meanwhile, #OpenBSD is like, "Well, our kernel doesn't have a modern filesystem, or bluetooth, and it may just panic if you poke the wrong thing, but the manpages will make you weep with joy, and everything is more or less sane and nicely laid-out, and we don't change things unless the change is an improvement."
* To be sure, right or wrong, I consider the constant push towards systemd-kitchensink to be very much political. And by "political," I mean "stupid office politics," not "your discussion of inherent issues of justice and ethics makes me uncomfortable in my privilege."
This makes me wonder how closely the OpenBSD kernel updates to keep up with CVE-related security issues?
@jrredho @amin @spaceraser @jlw_the_jobber @mason
That's a great question! I'm sure the #OpenBSD team takes security very seriously, but I'm afraid I don't know the specifics when it comes to CVEs.
@rl_dane @jrredho @amin @spaceraser @jlw_the_jobber
Ask and ye shall receive. This lists patches (and CVEs) by release:
Awesome! Thanks.
Now I wonder how this list compares with the Linux kernel efforts to do the same.
@jrredho @mason @amin @spaceraser @jlw_the_jobber
I think #OpenBSD places a much higher priority on security than Linux, maybe even pathologically so. ;)
I can't claim that makes it more secure in practice, but I know they are far more willing to break things in order to make it more secure.
IIRC, Linus doesn't even really like marking whether something is a security fix or not.
Again, I'm not saying that Linux is demonstrably less secure, and there are tons of options in the kernel to make it more secure that distros don't necessarily use or take advantage of.
I'm not experienced with either kernel other than as a user, so I'm genuinely curious.
But, a year or two ago at one of the @fedora annual conferences, I watched a kernel developer at Red Hat suggest that one of the reasons they push kernel updates so aggressively was to try to stay ahead of recently issued CVEs.
@jrredho @mason @amin @spaceraser @jlw_the_jobber
I think the idea in the OpenBSD world is more proactive than reactive security. Stuff like super aggressive address space layer randomization, W^X RAM (memory segments can't be writeable and executable), and a whole bunch more things.
If you're curious, this interview is usually a good place to start:
@kabel42 @jrredho @mason @amin @spaceraser @jlw_the_jobber
Yes, but a potential security problem isn't the same thing as a demonstrable security problem.
I may be a harrowed ex-infosec guy, but I think you've got a duty to mark things as high priority when they can be exploited.
@kabel42 @jrredho @mason @amin @spaceraser @jlw_the_jobber
False dichotomy, but ok. ;)
@kabel42 @amin @spaceraser @jlw_the_jobber @mason
Yeeesh.
I remember when I got my work machine in late 2022 (almost wrote that as 2002, yikes), Linux was unstable and did a lot of pauses/hangs for the first six months.
I still don't dare game on that machine.
@kabel42 @amin @spaceraser @jlw_the_jobber @mason
My X390 Yoga hasn't needed any custom anything. Everything just works in KDE Plasma, both in Kubuntu and Fedora KDE. That was pretty impressive to me.
My X200t needed manual intervention for rotation.
@rl_dane @kabel42 @spaceraser @jlw_the_jobber @mason
The LG one with 12th-gen intel?
You had a lot more problems with that than my 12th-gen intel machine, it's interesting.
@amin @kabel42 @spaceraser @jlw_the_jobber @mason
Yeah, that one.
I think I tried running the latest KSP on that no more than a couple years ago, and it just crashed badly.
@spaceraser @kabel42 @rl_dane @mason @jlw_the_jobber
aka the "R.L. Dane Kerbal Space Program Compatibility Score", or "RLDKSPC Score" for short.
@amin @spaceraser @kabel42 @mason @jlw_the_jobber
Y'all are forgetting:
@mirabilos @amin @spaceraser @kabel42 @mason @jlw_the_jobber
Actually, not sure if you care, but mksh coredumped after I upgraded to FreeBSD 15. (I'm back on 14 now, so I'm afraid I won't be able to troubleshoot). Just thought you might like to know.
It was installed from pkg
@mirabilos @jlw_the_jobber @amin @spaceraser @mason @kabel42
I'm sure it would work if compiled by source. Maybe it's some kind of library issue? I would think the pkg build system would've handled that automatically, no?
@kabel42 @amin @mason @jlw_the_jobber @rl_dane @spaceraser I have no idea how FreeBSD’s works (regarding binary packages)
the only time I came close to it (on a MidnightBSD system) I had my personal MirPorts installation under my home, so
@mirabilos @kabel42 @amin @mason @jlw_the_jobber @spaceraser
Ah, so you're not the maintainer, then.
If it's still broken the next time I try FreeBSD 15, I'll email the maintainer. They're probably slammed right now, squashing bugs.
@dzwiedziu One of my projects is rewriting my installer. It works but requires more handholding than is ideal. But it's what I use for all the systems here that aren't running FreeBSD.
Just… Josh 
Sam D
Mason Loring Bliss
R.L. Dane 
🍵 
Amin, minor deity of the legume realm
john r red-horse
kabel42
Daniel, aka. CactiChameleon9
mirabilos
OldCoder
Dźwiedziu