Miha
Brent ToderianIt's a goal of mine to help make this the most famous, well-known and UNDERSTOOD quote about cities in history. Please share it as much as you can.
oscarfalconIt's very succinct!
Tor McAfee Kingdon@BrentToderian it's amazing how many people react to that sentiment by asking what you should do instead of trying in vain build the problem away. Even if they understand that it's a futile effort, which many do, they just can't see how anything else is going to work. It's a very frustrating conversation I've had with seemingly intelligent people.
soaproot@kingtor @BrentToderian The answer is actually kind of easy: trains, busses, bicycles, and a walkable city. But I can see how that is easier to imagine if you are starting with a city which is partway there, than if you are starting with sprawl.
@soaproot @BrentToderian The problem is not answering the question with something that would work better, the problem is with people believing it would.
@kingtor @BrentToderian In a certain sense they are right: half-measures (or poorly implemented versions) of transit, walkability, etc, won't divert enough cars the same way that good quality transit, walkability, etc, will.
@soaproot @BrentToderian Yeah, and we are pretty good at half measures around here. One mayor declared us a bicycle-friendly city because a bike route looping around the city had been completed. Some of it is separated grade and some of that has over- or under-passes, but a significant part of it consists of signs announcing that you're on this bike route because you probably wouldn't notice otherwise. It also features one of the scariest intersections I've been through on a bike, and I used to turn left onto Highland Blvd from Sunset Blvd in Hollywood during rush hour.
SpaceLifeFormThe year is interesting.
Steve Holden@BrentToderian
Agreed: more capacity leads to greater flow until trip times across different modes are balanced.
Agreed: more capacity leads to greater flow until trip times across different modes are balanced.
sunflowerinrain@BrentToderian
See also Ben Elton's kitchen bin-bag demonstration of why adding lanes does no good.
This is snappier, though.
See also Ben Elton's kitchen bin-bag demonstration of why adding lanes does no good.
This is snappier, though.
kaktusBullshit. People don't just get bigger sideways, they also grow taller over the decades. You need to build new roads to accommodate this growth. You just need to be smart about it, and not share posts from people who just hate cars đ
Jennifer Moore đ·Counterpoint: this phrase, like many others, draws upon the stigmatisation of fat people for its analogy to make sense. I can't be enthusiastic about it. Maybe there's another one which could do a similar job without the down side?
Space Hobo@BrentToderian
It would be great if it were less fatphobic.
It would be great if it were less fatphobic.
âïž Roy Phillips@BrentToderian Loosen your belt and you'll be comfortable for a bit longer. Add more lanes and there will be more people in the wrong lane at any one moment, a percentage of which will panic and do something stupid to get where they wanted to be, and boom! congestion rises.
Elon Muksis đșđŠ đ”đž đȘđș
Raven Luni@BrentToderian Most traffic slowdowns are caused by people waiting to change lanes
Michael WestergaardThe quote cannot really stand on its own, imo.
Few people are aware that making more space for cars lead to increased throughout, which incentivizes more people to go by car, thereby filling up all available space and leaving you back where you started except with more roads and the same problems just in a bigger scale.
The quote hints at, but does not explain this, making it easily dismissible because it feels wrong until you have the context. At least it did for me until I got the full explanation.
Few people are aware that making more space for cars lead to increased throughout, which incentivizes more people to go by car, thereby filling up all available space and leaving you back where you started except with more roads and the same problems just in a bigger scale.
The quote hints at, but does not explain this, making it easily dismissible because it feels wrong until you have the context. At least it did for me until I got the full explanation.
paramilitary organizer@BrentToderian why do you think that fat shaming is acceptable? "Cure" obesity is both incoherent and offensive. And I say this as someone who knows that traffic evaporation is real when we provide better alternatives to private motor vehicles.
Ălbaum@BrentToderian But removing car lanes to encourage public transit is like increasing food prices to cure obesity.
@mr_creosote
@mr_creosote
Mr Creosote@oscherler @BrentToderian Where I work (big place), they are now building new parking space for cars, three stories in addition to the existing vast parking spaces. The streets leading there will remain the same, however. More parking space will simply encourage even more people to take their car to work who will then clog the already overloaded streets. It's simply stupid.
(I'm also in favour of increasing the prices/taxation of unhealthy food.)
@mr_creosote I didnât say unhealthy food, I said food.
And the solution to encourage public transport is to make it not suck, not to piss off even more the people for whom itâs already inadequate (e.g. people who live in the countryside because they canât afford to live opposite the train station like the people who come up with these shitty measures do.)
@BrentToderian
@oscherler @BrentToderian Of course. Anyway, I don't think anyone has argued in favour of *removing car lanes* without further measures, so it seems like a straw man point...?
@mr_creosote Where I live itâs a pretty common technique: piss off car users to âencourageâ public transit. Piss off commuters to âencourageâ them to take another route, with complete disregard for the people who live there and will endure those mesures even though theyâre for the target and have no choice about it.
Welcome to Idiocracy. We were even on French TV for it. https://www.20min.ch/fr/video/colombier-ne-le-feu-rouge-a-11-minutes-d-attente-fait-reagir-jusqu-a-paris-103437191
@BrentToderian
Colombier (NE): Le feu rouge Ă 11 minutes dâattente fait rĂ©agir jusquâĂ Paris
Un feu rouge Ă la sortie de Colombier, dans le canton de NeuchĂątel, fait patienter les automobilistes plus de dix minutes. De quoi agacer les uns⊠et faire rire les autres, jusquâĂ Paris, oĂč Laurent Ruquier sâen est amusĂ© dans son Ă©mission «Les Grosses TĂȘtes». (chs)
@oscherler @BrentToderian If there is no "functional" reason for this, it is obviously stupid. Where I live, traffic lights are (not a conspiracy theory, they openly admit it) "optimized" so that car drivers will have minimum disturbance. I cycle to work. Consequently, the traffic lights are very hostile to me.