Do the #Democrats suck?
Yes
The Democrats are also #Mamdani and #AOC
Do you view the Dems as an omnipotent alien monolith?
Why? They are an empty vessel. Fill them with your will. 50 AOCs. 50 Mamdanis
Do the centrists disgust you?
Good
Mob the #primaries. Vote them out
No?
You'd rather just feel disgust and disengage?
What does that achieve?
Are your feelings more important than our reality?
Fucking #VOTE goddamn it
How many fought and died- for your indolence and ineffectuality?
at the very least, just do it for Maceo
did he matter?
do you honor Maceo?
The Democratic Party is a coalition party with conservatives, centrists, leftists, and socialists.
We need to push the right-wingers out, and let them join the terror of the other side.
No more espousing the policies of one's enemy.
@benroyce Not exactly. They are a political organization with its own form of governance. People like AOC do run under that banner if they can get the Dems to support them. It's a very shaky relationship at best.
The Dems are full on into the program. I'm really starting to see them as the false opponent. The *organization* seems to have an agenda that is incompatible with those of us who would shore up its progressive wing.
The Democrats are a corporation.
what the fuck are you talking about
all you have to do is beat someone in a primary
you act like centrist democrats are an omnipotent alien force
in fact, they are quite weak now
@benroyce I def agree with this. And I def will vote *if* there are elections next year.
I think the important consideration is that people seem to think voting *is* the way out of this mess we’re in. It’s not. Other actions must be taken now.
It’s the complacency, waiting for AOC and Mamdani to “save” us, that’s going to be our downfall.
what are these alternative methods
please, speak them
i'm not saying voting is all you do. but if voting doesn't figure as the easiest most effective tactic? fucking bullshit
Ben, I’ve read your reply multiple times. I really don’t understand what you were trying to convey. It feels like I’ve offended you. If so, please accept my apologies.
But since you asked, here are 198 alternative methods:
https://www.aeinstein.org/198-methods-of-nonviolent-action/
There are many others that are more aggressive and risky, but these are 198 that suit the risk level akin to voting.
so we do all 198
then the vote comes and we forsake it. because, somehow, these other methods will deliver power. of course, since we don't vote, MAGA takes more power and machine guns us laughing
you have to vote. not the only thing you do, but not seeing voting as the key and most important point is utterly absurd
plus i really resent your "*if* there is a vote"
this is premature capitulation. you're complying, submitting, before MAGA achieves that goal. it's colossal weakness
@benroyce yeah, okay.
If you reread the first statement in my original reply, I made it clear that I agreed with you and the importance of voting.
I’m not sure why this is confrontational for you. And I’m not sure why you’re quick to call a varying opinion about the rank of voting as absurd. Or calling my ideas a “colossal weakness.”
When we’re on the same team fighting for the same goal (eradicating fascism) perhaps a respectful consideration of the ideas of others would be prudent.
"If you reread the first statement in my original reply, I made it clear that I agreed with you and the importance of voting"
"I think the important consideration is that people seem to think voting *is* the way out of this mess we’re in. It’s not"
😵💫
Well, at least you didn’t call me or my ideas names this time. But I’m unsure of your point with this.
Let me be clear:
1. Voting is important
2. Voting is not THE ONLY way out of this mess
Those ideas don’t contradict one another. Voting is one part of our arsenal. I’m saying it’s not THE arsenal.
@markwyner strongly agree
"Those ideas don’t contradict one another"
of course not
because that is not what you originally wrote
that's the only problem here
you indicated an entirely different meaning
i never called you or any of your ideas names, because your actual ideas were never expressed: you missed a word
it's just kind of silly isn't it?
this little rabbit hole because of a missed word
i remember once i forgot to write "not" and someone got angry at me
it happens
no big deal
@benroyce @markwyner I think all Mark is saying is that politicians will only act in the interests of the people if the people show them who they are. Voting is important - for all the reasons you've suggested in the past - but voting alone isn't enough.
The public need to be using every form of resistance to loudly reject fascism, and pressure the politicians into growing a backbone. Otherwise they'll always try to appease the fascists, as we're seeing today here in Britain.
@ApostateEnglishman @markwyner
i have no problem with you or mark's position
my only problem was that mark wrote "I think the important consideration is that people seem to think voting *is* the way out of this mess we’re in. It’s not"
he meant "*is* the >>>only<<< way out"
so this entire thread is a silly sidetrack because of one forgotten word. it's all cleared up further below
it happens
i've gotten into situations because i forgot a word too before
It is a rare democrat who will actively try to kill someone.
But there's plenty of republicans who've called to have me killed...
not true
you make an unfortunately common misconception about our democracy
we are not parliamentary. we are not ranked choice. examples that lend stability and viability to 3rd parties
we are first past the post
in FPTP only two parties are possible:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law
in FPTP third party votes only divide the left and ensures MAGA wins
we don't form coalitions like parliamentary. we can't have our vote fall to another candidate like RCV
we're stuck with dreary strategy
@benroyce How much do the Democrats suck?
So much they might save your life!
assuming of course, that the situation we're in is full blown fascism. oh yes, we're well on our way. but we're not there yet. assuming we're already there is a form of premature capitulation
ah the "it can't get worse" fallacy
perhaps combined with "i can't do it anything about it" fallacy?
that's the usual ineffectuality of the left
i'm not accusing you of that. but please note the road these kind of thoughts go down
@benroyce Oh I don’t think it can get worse. I think we are in a fascist nation. It’s doing fascist things already. There’s nothing to wait for and no future where we need to anticipate things getting worse.
November is not the time to take action. The time is right now. Voting is simply trying to pick a messiah to save you, to spare you from putting your body on the line. Nobody is coming to save us… and if they did they wouldn’t be wearing a suit.
You don't think it can get worse? Do you have awareness of other countries and history?
It can get much worse
What I don't understand is how damn hard you argue against voting. You're in a struggle and you use various tactics. Voting is just one almost zero effort tactic. So you use it. Done. No big deal
So do you argue against it because you're strategically and tactically inept? Or because you're actively trying to help fascism and lying maliciously about your intent?
If you think I'm being unfair:
We both agree we need to fight
So we fight
We use many tactics
Right?
And I'm like "voting takes little effort and can gum up the works if enough do it"
And you're like "nah, I like making the fight even harder and ensuring I have less chance of succeeding"
That's my entire problem with the rationale you speak here
so you're like the people who say they are going to move to a cabin in the woods
ok
alienation. giving up. then they come find you anyways because you stopped fighting for the structrure of your society and now they own it
or you're ready to commit violence
which means you wind up as a newsblurb and no one knows what you're about then you're forgotten
just fucking vote
@benroyce We don’t need zero effort tactics. We need to invest our lives in this. For reals.
Americans are so… fucking weak sometimes… literally will wonder why the bully beat them black and blue even though they stuck out their hand and said “no” like their teachers told them to do. Maybe if we all just say “no” louder they’ll stop punching us?
Oh that’s right! Bullies don’t care! And they certainly don’t care about elections…
@oberstenzian it's merely a tactic
you look at a knife and a molotv cocktail and you go "we're only using knives"
no you use both. omitting a valid tactic is stupid
> Oh I don’t think it can get worse. I think we are in a fascist nation.
By this I mean that, as our inherent fascist tendencies have metastasized, there’s no point in wondering if / when things will get worse. They will. All the possible bad things are just sitting in a queue waiting to be deployed. To me, all the worst is here waiting for their respective turns. Hardly a fallacy to expect evil things to happen under fascism.
fascist tendencies always existed and always will
dealing with it is just like taking the trash out every thursday
*not* taking it out is what led us to this
so let's take it out
vote
or what?
it's just a tactic
Nova Rivera
ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES
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