Mastodawn

Christine Lemmer-Webber

We're coming to the point where decentralized social media contains the only structures we're going to have left that aren't completely controlled by hard-right interests

The one centralized holdout is Bluesky, which means either that's going to need to be decentralized, or it's going to be the next right-wing target over this year probably

Robert W. Gehl Jan 19

@cwebber I was literally thinking the same thing today re: Bluesky. Especially in light of US states getting into regulating algorithms (mostly to protect freeze peach)

The Icarian Jan 19

@cwebber Bluesky is owned by the same techbro who started Twit and sold it to The Bad Musk. What do you think is going to happen to it?

Christine Lemmer-Webber Jan 19

@The_Icarian Afaik Dorsey no longer has any governance role in Bluesky, though he did arrange the initial funding

@cwebber @The_Icarian Correct, Dorsey is gone, specifically because Bluesky wanted more moderation than he was comfortable with. So that's a good sign, even though I'm still wary of the platform.

Marta Threadbare Jan 19

@Teskariel @cwebber @The_Icarian sadly their moderation mostly seems to be "yes, this post is hate speech, we'll label it as such. Here, have this slider to not see things labeled as such, but we'll keep platforming it". And that was too much for Dorsey?

@cygnathreadbare @cwebber @The_Icarian They're doing a bit more than that, though not enough.

@Teskariel @cwebber @The_Icarian I don't think I will be able to trust a for profit platform ever again. There was a point in web history in which online spaces should have stopped being commercial spaces and we have passed it loooong time ago, I guess it's time to set some boundaries

@fdrc_ff @The_Icarian @cwebber That's more than fair. After the events of the last years, we desperately need communication platforms that don't belong to billionaires.

Mark Kraft Jan 19

@cwebber @The_Icarian Indeed.. it's now owned by crypto bro VC investors, primarily. Who are going to want a big return on investment.

(Big improvement, I'm sure...)

Mastodon Migration Jan 19

@cwebber @The_Icarian

The 'story' is that Dorsey is gone, and indeed they have said that he holds no personal equity interest. There are other ways to retain obligations, like convertable debt, warrants or ownership through shells, that may be a way of disguising a continuing interest. It would be good to approach everything with such corporate entities with a healthy skepticism.

Ryan Singel Jan 19

@mastodonmigration
@cwebber @The_Icarian

My take after reading Lemmer-Webber is that there's no real path to technically decentralizing BlueSky, and a better alternative is figuring out how to decentralize ownership.

Figure out the current cap table, figure out how to buy the current investors out, turn to a membership co-op model with community governance, and use regulation crowdfunding (selling bonds or non-voting shares) when a capital raise is needed. Can do up to $5m a year.

Mastodon Migration Jan 19

@ryansingel @cwebber @The_Icarian

Or, just build the Fediverse and other PUBLIC SOCIAL MEDIA.

Ryan Singel Jan 20

@mastodonmigration
@cwebber @The_Icarian

I think foundations should be pouring money into the Fediverse, Spritely and, if they can figure out how to get BlueSky out of VC control, into that too

There's a little window to hijack a rocketship

Mr. Completely Jan 19

@cwebber @The_Icarian it's true, but they still have very sketchy people among the investors and the recent valuation round raised more concerns in this area. As I said elsewhere, I'm glad BS exists in this moment, but the investors are still a valid source of concern medium term

Mark Kraft Jan 19

@cwebber This is Lando.
The Empire is here. Time to GTFO of Cloud City, before more stormtroopers arrive.

Murdoc Addams 🧛🏻

@KraftTea @cwebber
It's a trap!

blobcatverified

@KraftTea @cwebber Well Han said you're no friend of the empire, so we should totally trust you ;)

Mark Kraft Jan 19

@johnmark @cwebber

@cwebber I don’t guess I trust Bluesky enough to not fall.

Mark Kraft Jan 19

@chad_j @cwebber Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.

El Duvelle Jan 19

@chad_j why though? @cwebber

@elduvelle @cwebber Because Bluesky is at the end of the day a corporation headquartered in and run by capitalists in Seattle. By a weird coincidence, I am also a capitalist in Seattle. Do not let Seattle fool you, we will sell absolutely everything and anything, and nothing is too sacred to not make a buck from.

El Duvelle Jan 19

@chad_j Oh do you mean that for you Twitter hasn't fallen it has instead succeeded somehow?
If so, yes, I do understand your point about Bluesky.. yes it is likely to "succeed" just like twitter 😬

@elduvelle no, I think either I have misstated my opinion or you have misread it. Twitter is a failure. I expect Bluesky to follow. It may be easy to look at my admission that I am a capitalist and think I mean it the other way, but that’s a trap in absolutist thinking: not everything needs to be exploited, and this trap is the one American capitalism has itself fallen into. And ultimately this is why we cannot have nice things - unless you can afford them.

El Duvelle Jan 19

@chad_j oh I read your post saying
"I don’t guess I trust Bluesky enough to not fall."
as meaning that you trust that Bluesky will not fall, as in, it will not turn out like twitter, but I must have misinterpreted then!

@elduvelle I freely admit that I frequently only make sense to myself. But I sound so SMART in my own head…

@elduvelle let me just say this: I hope I am wrong and that they uphold the lofty ideals they say they do, forever. But the problem is I only need to be right in my pessimism once to then have been right, forever. Do I trust capitalism when it tells me it’s not going to behave like it has been? I’d like to, but I just don’t.

No Gods , no Masters! RESIST Jan 19

@cwebber
I have been procrastinating about signing up on Bluesky...
I have an odd feeling about it and I don't know why. It's probably PTSD from Twitter, I worked really hard on building my Twitter account and then had to walk away which bothered me for about 3 weeks until I found Mastodon. I am afraid Bluesky will do the same thing.

Stéphane Tremblay 🇨🇦🇺🇦🍉🐧🩵🤍🩷Jan 19

@cwebber Absolutely. People flocked behind BlueSky because it was created by Twitter's ex-founder. But how long will it take before it becomes commercialized and user data starts being sold for advertising again?
1/2

Stéphane Tremblay 🇨🇦🇺🇦🍉🐧🩵🤍🩷Jan 19

2/2 @cwebber I'm also thinking about creating a non profit organization in Canada for hosting and managing some of these federated social networks. I'd love to get mstdn.ca, lemmy.ca and other *.ca networks under one banner and have a central hub for these services to help Canadians find these services. And also have a plan for getting government subsidies to financially support them. Just so we can have sovereignty over our social media, information and data.

Stéphane Tremblay 🇨🇦🇺🇦🍉🐧🩵🤍🩷Jan 19

Someone beat me to it!

https://fedecan.ca/

Welcome | Fedecan

Discover a new way to connect online. As a Canadian not-for-profit, we can help you join a growing network of federated social media that prioritizes community over profit.

Bass #AlleBurgers #EcoHumanist Jan 19

@cwebber It is confusing, but is BS not already decentralized by using the AT protocol? The probleem seems that everyone uses the same server owned by another tech giant.

https://techcrunch.com/2025/01/16/what-is-bluesky-everything-to-know-about-the-x-competitor/

What is Bluesky? Everything to know about the X competitor.

Bluesky is the latest app users are flocking to in an effort to replace X. We answer all your questions about the social network.

TechCrunch

Christine Lemmer-Webber Jan 19

@bassjobsen https://dustycloud.org/blog/how-decentralized-is-bluesky/ https://dustycloud.org/blog/re-re-bluesky-decentralization/

How decentralized is Bluesky really? -- Dustycloud Brainstorms

Mastodon Migration Jan 19

@cwebber @bassjobsen

Required reading for anyone before opinining on #Bluesky, #AT Protocol, or #FreeOurFeeds. ☝️

David Zappelli Jan 21

@cwebber @bassjobsen incredibly impressive. I used my screen reader and digested all of it while do some other work. This answers many of my thoughts and then some.
I was also surprised on your discussion of the BlueSky user name, handle, and keys. I don’t think people are even contemplating this as they scramble for replacements of Twitter/X, Facebook/Meta, or TikTok/Byte Dance, etc.
As a GenXer and heritage Silicon Valley resident, I’ve realized the potential of the Fediverse and its global implications. I’ve become a huge advocate.
Still, there’s still lots of education needed on what a free Internet and democratic access truly means. This is a shocking realization when the majority of Americans are screaming “I want my TikTok” (like MTV years ago), and yet relative to everything else that’s happening. It’s frustrating.

David Zappelli Jan 21

@cwebber @bassjobsen it’s also my understanding that BlueSky’s proprietary AT Protocol positions it as a potential disruptor in social networking, offering scalability and interoperability, but its centralized development and corporate control risk creating a protocol monopoly if widely adopted. Unlike the Fediverse, which uses open standards like ActivityPub to foster true decentralization, BlueSky’s model could lead to selective interoperability, gatekeeping, and challenges to smaller platforms’ independence. While its centralization provides stability and consistent updates, it makes BlueSky more vulnerable to government regulation, censorship, and monopolistic practices, akin to Facebook or Google.

David Zappelli Jan 21

@cwebber @bassjobsen In contrast, Mastodon and the Fediverse’s decentralized ecosystem offers greater resilience to censorship and monopolization but faces fragmentation risks due to inconsistent updates and adoption. Ultimately, BlueSky’s dominance could threaten the open, distributed ethos of the Fediverse, forcing a critical choice between adopting a centralized “open” protocol or doubling down on true decentralization, with significant implications for global access, innovation, and regulation.

Tobias Frisch Jan 20

@bassjobsen @cwebber It's a fundamental flaw of federalized protocols that users won't all have the knowledge or resources to host their own server. Therefore centralization is only slowed down in best case.

That is exactly why it even needs more decentralization than Mastodon is currently offering.

So BS is definitely no solution to this issue.

PunkJedi Jan 19

@cwebber BlueSky is decentralized, and is a public benefit corporation https://techcrunch.com/2025/01/16/what-is-bluesky-everything-to-know-about-the-x-competitor/

What is Bluesky? Everything to know about the X competitor.

Bluesky is the latest app users are flocking to in an effort to replace X. We answer all your questions about the social network.

TechCrunch

Christine Lemmer-Webber Jan 19

@punkjedi oh thanks, could you please tell me more about the "bluesky network" being decentralized? is it different than the "mastodon network"?

Mastodon Migration Jan 19

@punkjedi @cwebber

🤦‍♂️ Because they say so?

Coffeetest Jan 19

@punkjedi @cwebber That Bluesky article is not reassuring to me at all.

A public benefit corp is a for-profit corp that legally has to "consider" its stated benefit. Until proven otherwise, my guess is 99% of the time profits will out consider benefits.

Otherwise the other issues are stated as "hope to" "want to" and not "are doing" "will do" as far as monetization and decentralization. Literately 'it does not want to “require selling user data for ads”' so it will sell user data but with an opt out - best case.

It seem misleading to me to say "Is Bluesky decentralized? Yes." because it should be that it uses a decentralized protocol but is not currently decentralized. So its "Is Bluesky decentralized? No but it might be later."

Correct me if wrong on any of that.

Grant 🇺🇦ArmUkraine🇺🇦Jan 19

@cwebber I'll give it a few weeks, tops.

Rod Faulkner Jan 19

My bet is BlueSky is going to follow in-step with the other centralized social media platforms because it is controlled by a for-profit corporate entity.

Mr. Completely Jan 19

@cwebber I fully expect BS to be a target in the near future. It may be a little longer than a year, because it will have more value to asset-strip if they let its user growth continue for a year or two, plus it could end up being a big honeypot for lefty users. All that said, right now it's a useful transitional platform for many coming off Twitter and Meta, and hopefully provides a bridge to either a decentralized version of itself, or a Fediverse that has used the time wisely for improvements

JamieGC 🏴 🏳️‍🌈 🖖Jan 19

@cwebber big investors have gotten into Bluesky, I will stay there, but they will turn it into corporatized shit eventually.

@cwebber Agree 100% Now that Zuck (which rhymes with suck) has bent over for #45 creating a Zuck/Bezos/Musk trifecta, decentralized social is the last "safe space" left.

Tom Walker Jan 19

@cwebber But they're going to implement decentralisation real soon now, for sure!

(A dump truck full of money arrives)

Uh... so uh, we've all had an incredible journey...

The Doctor Jan 19

@cwebber Depends on how much you trust the founder of Bluesky.

Blake Leonard Jan 20

@drwho @cwebber I put a lot of trust in the founder and other developers. I don't trust their board.

edit: by founder I mean Jay, not the Twitter guy

The Doctor Jan 20

@blake @cwebber ...gotcha.

Mastodon Migration Jan 20

@blake @drwho @cwebber

This is the key point. Jay Graber seems very sincere, but her ability to control things is limited by her relative equity position. It is not known what percentage ownership she has, but in typical VC backed enterprises it would be far short of control. Also, the fact is that should someone with a whole lot of money want to buy Bluesky, she stands to become a very very wealthy person. Such prospects are a severe test of one's principles.

the #fediverse has its own charm, maybe bluesky will be a gateway, once they visit and see options in that space.

Olivia de Sousa Jan 19

@cwebber why are we still talking about left and right? Banning TT was bipartisan. Left and Right is an illusion. We need to unite with people on the opposite side of politics. The whole system is corrupt and run by puppeteers

crazyeddie Jan 19

@cwebber My guess is that the best you can hope for with Bluesky, if they stay really strong, is that it just slowly degrades as they chip away at it, take it over from the inside, or force the issue through investor influence.

@cwebber I was under the impression that it was already a target, at least at the user level. I definitely ran into a lot of people over there claiming to be doing just that. (People I blocked immediately)

@cwebber it's already controlled by right wing interests.

#BlueSky is a #DTBO , OWNED by vc crypto techbros. Guess where their allegiance falls? Profit.

Those guys ALWAYS align with fascists

Jolie Jodie Jan 19

@cwebber why facebook is no longer good?

@cwebber I tell anyone who will listen that BlueSky set themselves up with all the same liabilities as Twitter and will predictably follow the same enshittification trajectory because of it.

Someone will demand more profit than the current model will provide and they will introduce ads, subscriptions, "light" algorithmic moderation... They're on the on-ramp with no credible plan to do anything differently from here out.

Blake Leonard Jan 20

@gooba42 @cwebber It's TECHNICALLY possible to exit, but financially unfeasible. They started by treating themselves as a potential threat, building that into every aspect of the protocol (except, notably, Bluesky itself), but they just didn't get far enough before the enshittification started.