I'll start believing the anti-Zionists aren't antisemites when they stop using antisemitic tropes in their propaganda and lining up to praise known antisemites.
(This is not the only example I have, it's just the earliest from this cycle)
#antisemitism #antizionism #israel #protests #propaganda #jewishspacelasers #Intifada
@catatonicprime that would be a valid argument if I was seeing significant pushback from the rest of the movement. As it is, there is none of that. People who complain that "a few bad apples" isn't an excuse are now using it as an excuse. While obviously not everyone who's protesting now is an antisemite, it is deeply entrenched in the movement, and I see no way that someone can support it in its current form without bolstering these forces.
And then there's the point that anti-Zionism is the opposition to the State of Israel in its entirety. I don't see how one can argue for the dissolution of the only Jewish-majority state and no others without being antisemitic. People with no knowledge of this are calling themselves anti-Zionist, and the actual antisemites can use them as cover. It's a bad sign when a movement is composed almost entirely of antisemites and people too ignorant of the issues to recognize the antisemites in their midst.
@anonax yeah, zionism is a monolith too. There is only the state of Israel or there isn't. Definitely nothing in between.
Corollary: anti-zionism is also a monolith, there is either no state of Israel or there is, nothing in between.
@catatonicprime well yes, glad you understand. Zionism supports the continued existence of the State of Israel, and anti-Zionism calls for it's destruction. Any specific opinions on Israel's policy falls outside that binary, and in fact is implicitly Zionist as it assumes the continued existence of Israel.
Referring to any criticism of Israel as anti-Zionism, as many Israel critics do, only helps the anti-Zionists hide in the crowd and express their (antisemitic) desire to kill *only* the only Jewish-majority state.
Conflating "Israel delenda est" with "Israel should do $POLICY_CHANGE" has made it socially acceptable to shout at random Jewish elementary school kids, vandalize Holocaust memorials, and support terrorist groups and authoritarians.
If protestors want any legitimacy, they need to expel their elements which believe this is okay. They won't, because they don't know enough to protest without being animated by the antisemites. If they did, many would stop.
@anonax let's get this out of the way. Fuck antisemitism. Fuck antisemites.
My understanding is that zionism is not solely the state of Israel. I understand it to include numerous components & the state of Israel *is* a critical component to be sure. This is, effectively, the zionist movement from 1897 - and yes, this is me reading a wikipedia page; Why? So I can understand something that is outside of my sphere and help me parse the meaning of the things people are saying - on both sides.
You have a good point about policy change though. Like I disagree with Israel's policies in the west bank - which are ostensibly driven by revisionist zionism. Does this make me anti-revisionist zionist? If its just a policy disagreement, then no?
It is important to consider the material conditions that exist too. If Israel drew a line over the globe and said my home is in Israel, with no material impact, I don't think I care. But the moment the IDF knocks on my door - I care. A lot.
@anonax totally unrelated to all this... welcome to DEFCON, hope your hacking is going well =)
Definitely related - if those original posts were found here on the server - report them - because they are antisemitic and as I said, fuck those assholes, they do not have a place here.
@catatonicprime thanks! It's slow going, since I'm still developing my skills as I go.
The posts are not on defcon.social, but the disturbing part is they're often on major servers, including mastodon.social, by accounts in the thousands of followers. I sometimes report them, but it does so little that I've resorted to muting instead (I usually don't like blocking as it creates an illusion of conformity for others). I did need to block kolektiva.social though: it seems to select for assholes IME.
As for Zionism, I think that without any modifiers (such as Revisionist) it needs to only be used to describe support or rejection of the existence of the State of Israel. Otherwise, it becomes too easy for antisemites to hide in the crowd.
I'm in contact with a Columbia student who is Jewish and volunteers for human rights in the West Bank; exactly the kind of person the protestors like to put on a pedestal. Their perspective is that the protestors are by and large intolerant idiots.
Anonax
catatonicprime