Mastodawn

@Tooden @PatternChaser
Neither #ADHD nor #autism is 100% heritable, so by definition there must be an environmental component to both. That could be very early environment - I think there's research about trauma in childbirth being involved - so we might still be essentially born with it. Even so, our genes shape our response to any environmental factors, and the environment shapes the way our genetics translates to phenotype, for any complex trait.

That said, it's true that ADHD is defined for diagnostic purposes as interfering with function, which might make diagnosis more sensitive to environment.

PatternChaser May 8, 2024

@DrMcStrange @Tooden

Indeed. But diagnosis is just a way for an external observer (probably NT) to recognise the condition.

Symptoms are not a *description* of the condition, but only a diagnostic aid, which is something rarely mentioned. And it should be, because it's important, IMO.

Bennet May 9, 2024

@PatternChaser @Tooden
I agree with you on the first point.

I don't think the distinction between symptoms and description is quite as clearcut as you suggest. Behaviour, consciousness, and neurology are all aspects of the same thing, and I wouldn't say any one of them is more fundamental than the others, since there are feedbacks between all three.

PatternChaser May 9, 2024

@DrMcStrange @Tooden

In the simple case (common cold, maybe?), if you have the symptoms, you have the disease; if you have the disease, you have the symptoms.

#Autism and #ADHD don't work that way. Symptoms are diagnostic aids, as DSM-5 suggests. And they're the best *diagnostic aids* we've yet found. But they don't *describe* the condition at all. 😥

Description also requires care, for #autism is different from the outside (particularly to an NT) and from the inside. #ADHD too.

Bennet May 9, 2024

@PatternChaser @Tooden
Sure. I don't even know how I'd describe ADHD from the inside! I do think at least some of the symptoms (executive dysfunction, I'm looking at you) would be part of it though.

PatternChaser May 10, 2024

@DrMcStrange @Tooden

Of course 'symptoms' will probably feature in a description. But consider autists, and our "difficulties with social communication". This is a valuable diagnostic aid, but it isn't *caused* by autism. It's caused because NTs can't understand how or why we use language. In this example, the symptom is not part of, or caused by, the condition.

I suspect there are other examples too, for #autism, #ADHD, and maybe others too...?

Hugs4friends ♾🇺🇦 🇵🇸😷May 8, 2024

@DrMcStrange That's quite the dogmatic statement, and takes no account of either condition running in families, grandparents, parents & children. The truth is more likely to be that - through laziness, lack of curiosity, and deliberate ignorance on the part of the general psychological fraternity - Autism has remained a stagnated neurological disorder, and ADHD is believed to be a dietary disorder.
If you are going to 'cull' your opinions from the net, try to cast your net further and wider. #ActuallyAutisticElder @PatternChaser

Bennet May 9, 2024

@Tooden @PatternChaser
I'm not culling anything from the net here (lol). I'm a statistical geneticist who works on complex diseases. I don't work on ADHD (which I've been diagnosed with recently) or autism (which I suspect I also have), and wouldn't describe either of them as a disease, but they're certainly complex traits.

ADHD is highly heritable - about 75% of variance in the trait can be attributed to genetics - but not 100%. Very few traits are 100% heritable! That means environment (in a broad sense) must be playing some part. For any complex trait, there are many genes involved, and they interact with each other and with the environment. Those interactions are really hard to untangle, even for much simpler traits! And that's before we even take into account the large overlap in genetics between ADHD and autism.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking anything is caused by *either* genes *or* environment. It's almost always a combination of the two, and it's the interactions that are crucial.

Hugs4friends ♾🇺🇦 🇵🇸😷May 9, 2024

@DrMcStrange You should really take the test, then, because you are confusing behaviours with neurodiversity. Of course some is environmental. I'm a living example of environment exacerbating my Autism. It's called cPTSD.
You may ride your hobbyhorse to a standstill, but it is still an opinion based on your view. Wakefield has a view, too...as does Simon Baron-Cohen, and the # AutismSpeaks crowd. @PatternChaser

Bennet May 9, 2024

@Tooden @PatternChaser
Sorry, which test should I take? I think I've missed a reference somewhere...

I don't think I'm confusing behaviours with neurodiversity. Both are influenced by environment. Brain development is certainly influenced by environment (including diet) - my job as a geneticist would be much easier if it wasn't!

I'm not sure what Wakefield, Baron Cohen, or Autism Speaks have to do with any of this. I certainly haven't suggested that neurodiversity is something that should be prevented or "cured" (because it absolutely isn't!), if that's what you're implying. All I've argued against is your claim that "it has already been proven that ADHD is not diet, or environment, related." I suspect we're arguing at cross purposes here...

PatternChaser May 9, 2024

@DrMcStrange @Tooden

I think it might be the case that, for #autism and #ADHD, the environmental influence is less than it is for other conditions? As yin/yang teaches us, there is no black (nature) without white (nurture), yes? ☯ In this case, there is a little black, but it's mostly white, perhaps? 🤔

Bennet May 9, 2024

@PatternChaser @Tooden
Yes, yin/yang is a good way to look at it. I'd say it's mostly grey (interaction) though rather than black or white.

PatternChaser May 9, 2024

@DrMcStrange @Tooden

The point of yin/yang is to defuse the dichotomy. They are not opposites, but COMPLEMENTS, as are nature and nurture. Both of them always exist, in some balance, everywhere. 👍

In the end, nothing is truly distinct or separate. The Universe is One Thing; a Whole. *The* Whole.

Didn't scientists recently say the Universe is beige? 🤔

PatternChaser May 9, 2024

@DrMcStrange @Tooden

I have blood relatives who are not autistic, but not for (purely) 'environmental' reasons, I don't think. My genetic *tendency* toward #autism 'triggered', and theirs did not.

Of course, our environmental influences were different too... 👍

Bennet May 9, 2024

@PatternChaser @Tooden
Just to clarify, I'm using "environment" in a very broad sense, to include everything other than genetics. So there could be very subtle environmental differences that make the difference between your predisposition being "triggered" or not. Or of course it could still be down to purely genetic reasons - your NT relatives didn't inherit the exact same genetic variation as you, and maybe they didn't get the combination that predisposed you to neurodiversity.

One of the reasons we use families when studying genetics is that they tend to share roughly the same environment so there's less environmental variation to take into account. The other is that we can detect rare variants shared between affected family members, which would be difficult to detect in statistically significant numbers in a population cohort.

PatternChaser May 9, 2024

@Tooden @DrMcStrange

Simon Baron-Cohen is an acknowledged "world" expert on #autism. And, as we all know, lacking autists on his team, he gets it right about 50% of the time.

"World expert", hah! 😐

And as for #AutismSpeaks... There are no words. Violent coercion (ABA) is their thing, and it is despicable.

ABA was invented by Lovaas' team, a companion to their other invention: gay conversion! They all are Aversion Therapy, renamed and rebranded. Coercive & violent punishment for deviation.