@TruthSandwich@toad.social @8124@babka.social @rameshgupta @martin
“Where they came from means literally nothing”
– TS
I agree with you on a lot of things, this isn’t one of them. The tribes identifying as “Jews” originated there. They were kicked out, deported and persecuted many times, it’s not like they just decided to move to Europe.
If someone kicks a people out of where they originated, when they come to take the land back, you can call them many things, but not colonizers.
@TruthSandwich@toad.social @8124@babka.social @rameshgupta @martin If the argument for Israel not existing was “the Arabs won’t like it”, then should the world just go with it? We might as well give Ukraine to Putin, and the Balcans also, and why not all of Eastern Europe.
Should we find it ok the Jews would be a landless people - like the Kurds, or the Gipsy (right?) - and continue being kicked from place to place according to the changes in populace’s opinions?
⬆️ @TruthSandwich@toad.social
I mostly agree with you, but I see now where our comm went awry 🙂
I said: "After #Holocaust and #WWII, #Jews had to be rehabilitated. The West, including #US took in many of them. Why couldn't others go back to their ancestral land? See #Hamas Charter for comparable #Muslim claims"
By "others", I mean Holocaust survivors and other persecuted jews.
You took that to mean #Palestinians & replied:
>> Because their "ancestral lands" were occupied
@notwithstanding @8124@babka.social @martin
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@TruthSandwich@toad.social @notwithstanding @8124@babka.social @martin
>> What's wrong is that the Americas were occupied & these colonists displaced & replaced indigenous people
Again, distinct meanings of #colony are conflated
#Europeans discovered a NEW continent on which they had never set foot. They took land from #NativeAmericans. Their circumstances & motivations are not at all comparable to #Jewish situation
>> Fuck ancestral lands; they're myth
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@TruthSandwich@toad.social @notwithstanding @8124@babka.social @martin
#Hamas Charter:
4. #Palestinians are #Arabs who lived in #Palestine until 1947, irrespective of whether they were EXPELLED from it, or stayed in it; and every person that was born to an #Arab Palestinian… whether inside or outside Palestine
5. #Palestinian identity is… TIMELESS; passed from generation to generation…. A Palestinian shall not lose his or her national identity or rights by acquiring a SECOND nationality
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
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⬆️ @TruthSandwich@toad.social @notwithstanding @8124@babka.social @martin
>> What happened thousands of years ago is literally ancient history. It doesn't matter who owned what land back then. It doesn't matter today, except that it provides a mythology that leads to delusions of nationalism.
Good luck getting #Hamas to shed the delusions of #ArabNationalism
The present #MiddleEast quagmire is only about ~100 years old, not thousands.
It is rooted in #Arabism that would not tolerate #Jews. But losers can't chose.
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⬆️ @TruthSandwich@toad.social @notwithstanding @8124@babka.social @martin
>> I'm using it in the sense of one group of people deciding to take over land where other people already live
In that sense every real estate transaction ever, in which one party sells land on which they already live & another buys it to live on it would be colonization
Zionists did not come over to Palestine and grabbed all land en-masse. Small groups persecuted everywhere, Russia, Romania… came and BOUGHT small parcels to cultivate and live
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⬆️ @TruthSandwich@toad.social @notwithstanding @8124@babka.social @martin
>> Europeans who colonized America… saw native Americans as inferior and disposable.
>> Europeans who colonized Palestine came to consider themselves to be Israelis, and saw the Palestinians as inferior and disposable.
The analogy holds.
If you keep using the word #colonize in the wrong sense, there's not much to discuss.
We can just agree to disagree 🙂
notwithstanding
Ramesh #NotGoingBack