Mastodawn

Ramesh #NotGoingBack

#Palestinians Don't Want #Peace.

“We don’t want no two-state, we want 48!”, rejecting #TwoStateSolution, calling for #permanentStateOfWar, & #destructionOfIsrael

Susan #Sarandon, not content with helping #Stein derail #Clinton in 2016, brushed history aside, "you don’t have to go through the entire history of #Israel" & chanted #antisemitic slogan "#FromTheRiverToTheSea, Palestine will be free."

Palestinians are again letting outsiders fight for them #inTheirName only

https://nypost.com/2023/11/17/metro/pro-palestinian-protesters-shout-long-live-the-intifada-in-union-square/

Hundreds of pro-Palestinian protesters — including A-list actress — shout 'Long live the Intifada!', pass out maps of pro-Israel locations to target in NYC

Hundreds of pro-Palestine protesters – including Oscar-winning actress Susan Sarandon – came together in Union Square Friday, where demonstrators chanted “long live the Intifada!” and passed out tr…

New York Post

Roger Mills Nov 23, 2023

@rameshgupta Fact be known Hamas has repeatedly offered Israel a two-state solution based on the 1967 borders, not the 1948 conditions you falsely claim.

The first time Hamas agreed to this two-state solution was when the Saudi's led a peace initiative on this basis on 2002, then again in 2006 which Hamas repeatedly attempted to engage the Israelis on and even today Hamas clearly states they would accept a two-state solution based on the 1967 borders, but Israel refuses to even negotiate.

Ramesh #NotGoingBack Nov 23, 2023

>> not the 1948 conditions you falsely claim.

I didn't make that claim. It's in the linked article

Facts be known:
1. Main #Palestinian #grievance is not the absence of free #Palestine but the existence of #Israel

2. When given a chance to establish a state, Palestinians have rejected it time and again

Click through on hashtags #permanentStateOfWar, #inTheirName. I'd be happy to engage in further discussion if you cite compelling evidence to the contrary from credible sources

Ramesh #NotGoingBack Nov 23, 2023

#Palestinians rejected 1947 borders proposed by #UN & went on a #civilWar.

In 1948, they let #Egypt, #Jordan, #Iraq, & #Syria escalate that civil war into full-blown international war #inTheirName

Arabs lost that war.

In 1967, Palestinians again let Egypt, Jordan, & Syria attack #Israel from 3 sides, and lost again

Having lost, they were in NO position to start with 1967 borders as base in ANY peace process

#Hamas did not in 2006, and still does not represent ALL Palestinians

Roger Mills Nov 23, 2023

@rameshgupta Really the 47 borders were designed with Zionist inputs & no Palestinian input despite the Palestinians, the indigenous people, making up 65% of the population & being offered about 45% of the land

The Zionists owned only 5.x% of the land and were being given 65% of it

I don't know an American Indian who thinks that was fair

Does it sound fair to you?

Now, be honest if you were offered that deal would you take it?

I have EXTREME doubts you would

Roger Mills Nov 23, 2023

@rameshgupta I had lost my notes so I had to do a bit more research, but that was okay as I learned a few more bits and pieces.

You do realize, I'm sure, that obtaining a decent understanding of a situation's backstory is not easily done in sound bites.

Norman Finkelstein on Hamas offers to settle conflict on 1967 borders. For relevant discussion skip to time stamp 14:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AbhDQvZlJs

'This is Annihilation': Norman Finkelstein DISMANTLES Israel's War on Gaza

YouTube

Ramesh #NotGoingBack Nov 23, 2023

I really appreciate that you took time to look for your notes & do more research rather than shooting from hip 🙂 I will get back to you once I've gone through your posts

Meanwhile, the single statement that "#Palestinians chant #FromTheRiverToTheSea to incite #Hamas to fight a #permanentStateOfWar #inTheirName only" might seem like a "soundbite" bereft of nuance and backstory, but it is not.

There's incredible amount of rich detail in the hashtags, if you start with the last two.

Ramesh #NotGoingBack Nov 23, 2023

You sent me a barrage of posts that will take me some time to get through.

In the meantime, how about you going through this single essay ➡️ https://mastodon.social/@rameshgupta/111424459819186730 and letting me know of your thoughts?

Roger Mills Nov 23, 2023

@rameshgupta Eliminatory policies are the DNA of Zionism from the inception of the Zionism in the late 19th century.

You want as much of land with as few Palestinians as possible. There’s demographic & geographic dimensions. The more space the less you want indigenous population. The eliminatory policy could be genocide, ethnic cleansing or apartheid. ~~Ilan Pappé

https://www.youtube.com/live/1OcjOP8iUCU?app=desktop&si=9MCRbK-dE8U6-7rC&t=506

Professor Ilan Pappé-Crisis in Zionism, Opportunity for Palestine?

YouTube

Roger Mills Nov 23, 2023

@rameshgupta Norman Finkelstein on UN proposal to establish two-states along the 1967 borders. Start time stamp 18:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUfWTHbCS78&t=251s

Brief History of Israel-Palestine Conflict | Norman Finkelstein Teach-In on Gaza, Israel, and Hamas

YouTube

Roger Mills Nov 23, 2023

@rameshgupta King Abdullah posed an end to the conflict
• Israeli withdrawal to ‘67 borders
• A settlement of the refugee question based on UNSCR 194 &
• Recognition of East Jerusalem as the capital of an independent Palestine
In exchange, the Arab League would
• Declare an end to the Israeli-Arab conflict, enter in a peace agreement w/ Israel &
• Establish relations w/ the State of Israel

https://www.mei.edu/publications/arab-peace-initiative-returns-will-it-supplant-abraham-accords

The Arab Peace Initiative returns. Will it supplant the Abraham Accords?

Although the Abraham Accords have been the main focus of Arab-Israeli peace-making since they were signed, the Arab Peace Initiative (API), introduced by the late Saudi King Abdullah 20 years ago, remains relevant and may be the better reflection of a path forward for Middle East peace

Middle East Institute

Roger Mills Nov 23, 2023

@rameshgupta The link is too long to fit in the post, but if you google

Norman Finkelstein - Israel and Palestine

Case Western Reserve University·Dec 29, 2008

you should be able to easily locate it; the relevant section is at time stamp 20:52

Roger Mills Nov 23, 2023

@rameshgupta In 1999, Barak declared his commitment to the [Oslo] accord.
However, a rapid loss of his majority, he & Clinton rushed Arafat into a haphazard summit in 2000.

According to the Israeli experts, the end to conflict would annex settlements to Israel, a Palestinian capital in a village, & a demilitarized state, Israeli economic control & security domination. The final deal totally ignored the Palestinians in Israel.

https://jacobin.com/2020/10/israel-peace-palestine-oslo-accords-plo

Israel’s Peace Process Was Always a Road To Nowhere

Two decades after the peace process expired between the Camp David and Taba summits, many look back with nostalgia at the Oslo Accords between Israel and the PLO. But historian Ilan Pappe argues that the failure of Oslo to deliver Palestinian sovereignty was baked into the process from the start.

Roger Mills Nov 23, 2023

@rameshgupta In 1999 Israel was to 2 dictate the plan before it was presented as a fait accompli.

Arafat refused the Bantustan of the West Bank & Gaza, divided into cantons, with no foreign, economic or defense policies.

Arafat was asked to declare such as the end of the conflict. American & Israeli’s said Arafat was presented 'the most generous offer ever' & had rejected it as he was a war monger.

https://www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/the-palestine-peace-process-unlearned-lessons-of-history

Aberfan: no end of a lesson

History & Policy

Roger Mills Nov 23, 2023

@rameshgupta Reasons for the retention of the 1967 war territorial gains. Or, for not returning to the 1967 borders. Time stamp 33:00

What to do about the Americans? 40:29

Israeli perception of the Two-State solution 42:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeNTVOMdepM

Conference by Ilan Pappé: The Semblance of Peace in Palestine

YouTube

Roger Mills Nov 23, 2023

@rameshgupta I have found a good deal more information but those will require some digestion, if you care to continue the discussion just let me know and I will be glad to engage.