Mastodawn

Shoq Jun 5, 2023

SkyDeck has been launched; Tweetdeck for BlueSky.

The public and press are already enchanted with Bluesky. They know how to build a brand, they have big resources, the tech is advancing rapidly, and users are thrilled. If the Fediverse doesn't have a response to it, besides just building "bridges," it's in danger of going Betamax. And that would be bad.

Old saw: “The trails of pioneers are marked by the arrows in their backs.”

Mastodon popularized decentralized networks. But a surging Bluesky could overpower all that it in a matter of months. Don’t waste energy telling me that can’t or won’t happen. It will be faith-based reasoning at best. At present, BlueSky has all the buzz, and if Fedi doesn’t have a plan to compete with AT on personal algorithms, it will be fast become yesterday’s news; the digital betamax.

Shoq Jun 5, 2023

Unfortunately, they don’t need “community buy-in” to add every feature that fediverse has talked about for years, but been very slow to implement, because almost everything is volunteer. A commercial venture doesn’t have that problem, and the open source nature of AT Proto lets them thread a needle: they can be a public benefit corporation, and “feel” like a nonprofit, while having access to big capital to advance the technology, FAST.

Shane Jun 5, 2023

@shoq I get your point, but this makes it seem like those "pioneers" were in the right and the arrows are unjust. Think of a better analogy that doesn't demonize first nations! #firstnations #casualracism #dobetter #beatthesystem

Shoq Jun 5, 2023

@shane I understand the criticism, but I feel it’s a completely generic saw in any culture, not just First Nations. The point it wants to make is, it’s hard to blaze new trails, but much easier for those following that same trail in the future. Sorry if it offended. I’ll probably not use it again.

Shane Jun 6, 2023

@shoq What other culture anywhere at any time had "pioneers" forging their way into a land where arrows are used. Maybe Australiasia, the Amazon? The inclusion of arrows is a clear reference to the Plains nations, at least from the stereotypical Hollywood depiction. And this is the layered racism inherent in this phrasing - even as I try to educate ppl about this, they claim they "didn't even know it meant natives" - so not only are we slandered, but we are also rendered invisible. Incredible.

Jesse Jun 5, 2023

@shoq It’s probably too late for Mastodon to take the place of Twitter, a role for which it was always a poor fit. I don’t think it’s even close to too late for ActivityPub. Developers need to get bolder & more creative, but I’m cautiously optimistic that’s happening. I don’t see BlueSky on the verge of a monopoly, especially with Meta about to enter the chat. Twitter’s monopoly is broken. If I was a developer (how I wish) I’d be focused on building cool shit on AP, and feeling pretty good.

Jesse Jun 5, 2023

@shoq *Developers also need to be joining up with non-developers, the integration of other skills and perspectives is probably the biggest advantage of literally everyone else in this space.

Shoq Jun 5, 2023

@misc Absolutely, but no one is going to do that with something that feels like yesterday’s news. Once Masto’s mojo is gone (and much of it took a huge hit in last 6 months), its’ very hard to capture lightning in a bottle twice. There are a lot of problems with Mastodon that seasoned techs know all about, and they are the people most likely to quickly adopt AT if not Bluesky.

Jesse Jun 5, 2023

@shoq If AT becomes actually open, whatever - fediverse by another name. I’m exaggerating but not much. Bridges will become more fluid, and frankly I don’t care where people gather to a large extent, it’ll be a wide open space for experimentation, and AP fediverse won’t go away as an option. If AT remains BlueSky, people will build with AP because it’s the only game in town. Great thing about Mastodon being equated with the Fediverse is that only Mastodon has the brand damage all to itself. ;)

Shoq Jun 5, 2023

@misc AP doesn’t have to go away. But if AT continues to evolve this fast, and this well, it will quickly feel like patching holes in the boat, not launching flashy new ships. Few devs will spend time writing for a far less powerful and extensible protocol that seems on its way out. But yes, until then, the fediverse should be open to all comers. I just believe AT is poised to be the alpha dog very fast. Like, by Labor day. We shall see.

Shoq Jun 5, 2023

@misc I agree with most of what you said, but after spending a few weeks with the bluesky approach, and especially the personal aglos (aka feeds), I am convinced that if they federate as planned, they will quickly be the new fediverse standard. For 3 big reasons. Scalability, Personal Algos, and DIDs. AP can certainly upgrade, but momentum will have be crushed. A community interface like Calckey will appear in a few weeks, and quickly become appealing to anyone planning a new site.

Shoq Jun 5, 2023

@misc As a friend put it recently, Mastodon and its peers then risk becoming the Linux of social networking: adored and revered by faithful few million.

Jesse Jun 5, 2023

@shoq Personal algorithms seem like something that can and should be implemented on the client side. (Can also be server side but no need to wait) Can you elaborate on what you mean by scalability? And by DIDs are you just referring to account portability — which it seems is getting worked on? Or do you see it as important in other way?

Oblomov Jun 6, 2023

@shoq counterpoint: BlueSky has nothing to do with decentralization. It may succeed in being the next Twitter, but unless (and until) the AT protocol proves itself in federation, with BS in it, its success will be completely independent of the Fediverse evolution: it'll just be the next centralized silo, that would have existed and be successful regardless of Mastodon and the Fediverse, and no amount of work done on the latter would prevent it.

1/

Oblomov Jun 6, 2023

@shoq
Which isn't to say that the Fediverse platforms and clients don't need to improve, but that this will be unrelated both to their success and to BlueSky's.

2/2

Oblomov Jun 6, 2023

P.S. we actually have a very clear example of this. Having to choose a server was touted to be the single biggest issue with Mastodon onboarding. The app fixed this by directing people to m.s automatically. This has done absolutely nothing to reverse the downwards trend in new account registrations. Why? Because the truth is that was just an excuse. The same goes for every other feature requested.

1/

Oblomov Jun 6, 2023

@shoq you can rest assured that most of the people that claimed to not come to Mastodon because it was missing feature X won't come even when feature X is implemented, and not because the window of opportunity is gone, but because that was just a rationalization they came up with to justify their repulsion for something that they consider amateurish simply for not having big money behind it.

2/

Oblomov Jun 6, 2023

@shoq BlueSky's success has nothing to do with Mastodon having validated the idea of decentralization —the people joining BS don't care about that, and many even consider it a negative, as @atomicpoet has found out discussing the idea there. AT or no AT would make no difference, nor any effort at improving Mastodon, because the issue is cultural, not technical.
3/3

Ian Tindale Jun 6, 2023

@oblomov @shoq @atomicpoet
The fediverse competes by being stunningly boring and technical all day long

It’s full of technical people talking technical bollocks to other technical people who like reading and thinking about more technical bollocks

The incredible thing is that the fediverse actually has a content warning system, but no, the boring technical people don’t care, they’ll just pump the place full of technical meaningless bullshit end to end with no consideration that it’s fucking boring, uninteresting and pretty much the triametric opposite of fun – seriously, CW all your technical shit, nobody cares about it

This implies that technical boring crap (all of it unexplained by the way, just dive in and assume everyone else knows what it means) (they don’t) is actually normalised in the fediverse

The fediverse normalises the notion that boring uninteresting technical bollocks is what you fill a ‘social network’ with – and as such that’s a bad situation

It worships words like decentralisation, but really nobody gives a fuck about that, whatever it actually means, because it has no impact at all on normal people

If I were to start a ‘social network’ it’d be silly – that’d be it’s core ethos – make it silly, make it daft, make it trivial, no technical boring talk allowed, just stupidity and escapism – it’d be what people talk about at parties, not what computer programmers talk to each other about because they didn’t get invited to those parties

If you want fun? Don’t know, but here’s where the technical stuff is normalised as the displacement for fun – another place like that is linked in, talk about work and offices all day, no room for trivia and fun and nonsense

Admin Jun 6, 2023

@u0421793 @oblomov @shoq
@atomicpoet

This original post is #mainstreaming or die - this is so obviously the worship of the #deathcult in the era of #XR that we should not have to talk about this kinda mess

Oblomov Jun 6, 2023

@u0421793 @shoq @atomicpoet

Can't say I share your experience. Yes, there are posters with a lot of tech content, because that's their primary interest (unsurprising, a lot of historical accounts here care about the federation, as they “eat your own dogfood” early adopters). There's also a lot of politics, game development news, art, and stand-up quality comedy. Ultimately it depends on who you follow.

(LinkedIn is a different thing, as work networking is literally what it was created for.)

Chris Trottier Jun 6, 2023

@u0421793 @oblomov @shoq You need to find new people to follow.

Ian Tindale Jun 6, 2023

@atomicpoet @shoq @oblomov it’s not the people I follow (I wouldn’t, of course), it’s from looking at the world or planet timeline (which by definition must represent the fediverse at this precise moment) – no wonder new people come and then go so readily

Oblomov Jun 6, 2023

@u0421793 @atomicpoet @shoq the federated timeline is also different from server to server. You are on a tech-oriented server, so much of what you see is going to be about tech even in the federated timeline, because that's what people on your server follow. I'm on a server with a strong sociopolitical orientation, and much (but not all) of what I see on the federated timeline is sociopolitical (but also a lot of tech).

Oblomov Jun 6, 2023

@u0421793 @atomicpoet @shoq I have an account on a generalist instance too, and the federated timeline there is very different (for starters, it has much more porn)

Ian Tindale Jun 6, 2023

@oblomov @atomicpoet @shoq what do they see these days on mastodon social I wonder ? I used to have an account there but got pissed off with the defective behaviour of not showing posts that other people were seeing at the same time as we were all posting ( watching top of the pops) so deleted the account – now it’s the default funnel account for new joiners I’m still expecting them to see a technical overload like I used to experience there several years ago before the big influx

Oblomov Jun 6, 2023

@u0421793 @atomicpoet @shoq I sometimes wonder about that. I assume the federated timeline there is so busy most people won't be able to make head or tail of it, which might be kind of the reasons why the Android app doesn't even feature it in the first place.

CrazyMyra Jun 7, 2023

@u0421793 @atomicpoet @shoq @oblomov
This part of the thread is a perfect example of what I keep saying. A bunch of people in your replies who deny that your opinion is valid and based on life experience. It is, apparently, *your* fault.
It's why people leave. Not because they don't like the features. They're sick of the scolding.

@OutOnTheMoors @u0421793 @atomicpoet @shoq @oblomov

But isn’t it the same at a centralized social media? People deny that your opinion is valid? Only that at other services there is a patriarch, who can be loved for his good decisions and hated for the bad decisions, relieving people from taking responsibility themselves?

(Is there a special reason, that Jack, Elon, Zuck are all four letter words?)

CrazyMyra Jun 7, 2023

@Life_is @u0421793 @atomicpoet @shoq @oblomov It's the scolding. I get sent fucking homework in the form of links to yet someone else's opinion, which alleged "proves" I'm "wrong". This is cobblers.

Oblomov Jun 7, 2023

@OutOnTheMoors @atomicpoet @shoq
nobody is denying that @u0421793 opinion (or rather, experience) is invalid, but if others have had a very different experience, and the kind of experience people have on the fediverse is the topic of the conversation, sharing that others have had a different experience is the whole point.

CrazyMyra Jun 7, 2023

@oblomov @atomicpoet @shoq @u0421793 it's seldom sharing. It's usually scolding

Oblomov Jun 7, 2023

@OutOnTheMoors @atomicpoet @shoq @u0421793
that feels more like something in the eye of the beholder.

CrazyMyra Jun 7, 2023

@oblomov @atomicpoet @shoq @u0421793 Exactly. An opinion held by many. And all we get for expressing it is more scolding from oblivious morons

Aleggra Jun 7, 2023

@u0421793 @oblomov @shoq @atomicpoet

Is that why some fediverses only have 2 people on them?

Oblomov Jun 7, 2023

@Aleggra @u0421793 @shoq @atomicpoet
that might be just because they are individual/family servers.