Pauline RobertsJan 14, 2023
Where did Stafford Beer go? https://systemspractitioner.com/2023/01/14/where-did-stafford-beer-go/
Where did Stafford Beer go?

systems practitioner
Show threadᛕᎥᕼᗷᗴᖇᑎᗴ丅ᎥᑕᔕJan 14, 2023

@systemspractitioner

Below is my impression of the #VSM. Too much “overhead”😀

I believe Beer himself recognized somewhere that of all the subsystems making the VSM, only System(s) “of the first kind” are truly viable systems (can survive on their own). All the other systems are just “coordinators” relying on the existence of System 1.

Show threadPauline RobertsJan 15, 2023
@Kihbernetics Yes, I picked that up from his work also. I wonder how he might have developed it further/ changed it if he were around today?
Show threadᛕᎥᕼᗷᗴᖇᑎᗴ丅ᎥᑕᔕJan 15, 2023
@systemspractitioner
Interesting question. I don’t know what he would be thinking if still around today, but I hope he would be using a less “cybernetic” and more “organic” approach in which there is no one fixed hierarchy of “systems” imposed from above, but where “higher” levels are created spontaneously, as needed, by the interaction of the elements on the “lower” level to satisfy some of their emergent needs for more efficient communication and coordination.
Show threadPauline Roberts
@Kihbernetics I have always perceived the actual use of vsm to be organic. I’ve never used it as an imposed hierarchy, although I know people who do use it that way.
Jan 15, 2023 at 7:29pmMastodon for iOS
Show threadᛕᎥᕼᗷᗴᖇᑎᗴ丅ᎥᑕᔕJan 15, 2023

@systemspractitioner

I understand many people are comfortable with VSM but I never used it and I find it cumbersome and complicated to understand. I worked with companies using #CMMI, #ISO, #6Sigma, #SCRUM, along with a few other standards and frameworks and, apart from my #DynamicalSystem model, which I use to explain practically everything these days 😀, I try not to have strong preferences for specific tools and frameworks and try to learn first how what the company is currently using and familiar with can be re-used, tweaked or augmented to achieve their goals for the future.

Show threadPauline RobertsJan 16, 2023
@Kihbernetics I use VSM as a learning system. Different to top down. I also see VSM quite differently to the picture you shared. I find it exceptionally useful for exploration to understand an organisation and how it is managing complexity. It also helps me to explore the dynamics in the situation. Exploring the archetypes is particularly powerful, many of which I see playing out in situations. It opens up a wide range of possibilities . For me, it’s all about how the VSM is perceived.