Mastodawn

Sorrow, Patron of the Mad Jan 6, 2023

"We're f***ed at least until the #Tories are gone. We may still be f***ed afterward; and, unless we ditch #FPTP, they could come back and f*** us some more."

Broadly agree/disagree?

(Please boost for wider opinion.)

Broadly agree ✅

98.5%

Broadly disagree ❌

1.5%

Poll ended at Jan 9, 2023 at 10:56pm.

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Fen C Jan 9, 2023

👆 Poll Final: No surprise here!

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Hamish the Dug Jan 2, 2023

@fencoul Folk in Scotland have a third possibility, of course. #ScottishIndependence

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TheBeastOfBaglan Jan 6, 2023

@Hamish_the_Dug @fencoul And Cymru too!!

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Nuno Jan 3, 2023

@fencoul this is interesting, as someone with about 0 knowledge about UK politics, I'm surprised to see the FPTP. So this means that there is no representatives of second most voted even if that candidate has 40% of voting against 41%? From outsider perspective, that sounds very little representative.

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Mike Jan 14, 2023

@wolverinuno @fencoul Agree. In Norway, PR forces parties to consider views of other. Can be difficult, but more people are heard. Positive for me is that negotiations are necessary, rather that just refusing to discuss, e.g. US

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Ben Jan 3, 2023

@fencoul 100%. And this is the problem with the Labour party. They refuse to acknowledge terms are 5yr max and a GE in 2029 would be a thing.

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ex or current IDF unwelcome Jan 3, 2023

@fencoul A massive Labour majority will make it hard for them to share power .

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theothertom Jan 3, 2023

@fencoul This feels like an "it's complicated" question. I dislike FPTP, as it means that my vote is basically worthless. However, I'm really not sure that trying to change the voting system is the best way to improve things.
Mostly my thinking is that it would need a complex and nuanced debate about the tradeoffs that a new system would have, which would require using a lot of time and political capital that could be spent on other things.

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Fen C Jan 3, 2023

@tom The problem is that everything's screwed until we're a proper proportional democracy...putting it off because <X> just means it's never resolved...ever...

Seen this?: https://bit.ly/3IjOaNW

A Mythical PR Party? - A guest post by Fen C, @fencoul (Twitter). - Progressive Pulse

Introduction What happened to the United Kingdom? The answer is “a lot”, and not much of it very good. What can be done to get the SS United Kingdom back on an even keel? Here’s an idea: opposition parties collaborating. “Hasn’t that already failed?” I hear you ask. “If at first, you don’t su ...

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Ecosaurian 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

Jan 3, 2023

@fencoul
Really @tom?

The FPTP system is completely broken and allows the Tories to dominate ~80% of elections with less than half the vote share due to gerrymandering.

That's how we got Brexit. And many other societal disasters.

I'm open to people debating the merits and consequences of alternative systems, but 'now is not the time' is neoliberal speak for get back in your box and do what you're told.

...Which nobody in this country can afford to do unless they're part of the privileged super rich.

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theothertom Jan 4, 2023

@Ecosaurian @fencoul I wasn’t saying that it’s not the time, more that the proposed approach is very risky. It feels especially so if framed as “we need to replace FPTP”, since that can be interpreted as meaning a variety of different things (by both supporters and opponents).
Considering how the AV and Brexit referendums went, the thing I would support is setting up a commission to design a new system based on defined goals, so people know what they’re choosing.

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theothertom Jan 4, 2023

@fencoul @Ecosaurian for example, I remember AV being described as complicated and “giving some people more votes” (both I disagree with). Seems a proposed system must not just be “fair”, but also appear fair. As I understand it, the Condorcet method is technically the fairest voting system, but I’d say it fails the “seeming fair” test due to complexity.
Then there’s considerations around if and how the link between seats/parties/constituencies would be preserved

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marcorobotics Jan 4, 2023

@tom @fencoul @Ecosaurian has anyone ever proposed a super-simple FPTP with negative votes? Everyone gets a +1 vote and a -1 vote, and the winner would need not just a majority of +1 but the best difference between positive and negative votes.

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Ecosaurian 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

Jan 4, 2023

@marcorobotics @tom @fencoul
It would certainly be an improvement on the current system, though the influence of the predominantly right-wing UK media would remain detrimental to democracy.

I'd like to see a move away from the party power structure - I want representatives who are willing to co-operate and work constructively for the common good instead of cheap partisan tactics like we see daily in the Scottish parliament with Labour, Libs and Tories all queuing up to snipe at anything the SNP do.

Getting off topic a bit, but the Gender Reform Bill was one of the few things I've seen in a decade that had almost unanimous cross party support - that's the way it should be rather than voting against a policy in Scotland, then proposing the same policy in England a month later!

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theothertom Jan 4, 2023

@marcorobotics @Ecosaurian @fencoul I’ve not seen that, closest was https://www.ourcommons.ca/content/Committee/421/ERRE/Brief/BR8524815/br-external/NegativeVoteAssociation-e.pdf (you have one vote, for or against).
It’s an interesting idea, and feels like it might go some way towards avoiding vote-splitting, though perhaps doesn’t give as much indication of voters preferences as STV.
I do wonder if it might lead to parties attempting to split the negative vote too, which could be an interesting factor.

Good luck with a 'complex and nuanced debate' with the UK press and media.

The next government will be chosen by Murdoch, Barclay, Rothermere and the BBC.

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Yaseen, Yaseen of Yaseen 🏳️‍⚧️Jan 3, 2023

@fencoul exactly true. The electoral system forces the political system to be confrontational. Alt systems forces the political system to be collaborative. Which is what it should be. People will claim that this is how Ukip will get in, but I think the real issue is that due to their lack of political participation Ukip was able to exert soft control over the Tories by being a threat from the outside - much worse than if they were inside the system.

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Fen C Jan 3, 2023

@yassie_j Spot on, Yaseen... 🙂

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MW1CFN Jan 3, 2023

@yassie_j @fencoul And Reform UK are still massaging the Tories in exactly that way.

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Yaseen, Yaseen of Yaseen 🏳️‍⚧️Jan 3, 2023

@MW1CFN @fencoul exactly right. If they were in parliament, then they would have to be forced to defend their ideas to other MPs and face public scrutiny. But outside of parliament, they don't need to worry about contesting their ideas. They can just supplant it outside. Lest we forget that Brexit was always a Ukip idea. If Ukip had to honestly debate Brexit, it would never have happened, IMHO. The parliamentary maths would have made it impossible.

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Nigel Pugh (he/him/they)Jan 4, 2023

@fencoul STV was passed by the Senedd last year pre the council elections, but it was ‘optional’ to adopt. Suprise, non of the councils adopted it, all parties guilty of sticking, not potentially busting their strong hold. Politics needs not to be a career. https://www.gov.wales/implementation-single-transferable-vote-system-local-elections-wales

Implementation of a Single Transferable Vote system for local elections in Wales | GOV.WALES

To explore the introduction of a Single Transferable Vote (STV) system in future local elections in Wales as laid out in the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Bill 2021.

GOV.WALES

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