@Walrus 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 @Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 That's actually a problem if you're on vanilla Mastodon with only 500 characters per toot and only 1,500 characters of alt-text per image. Your only chance would be to spread the transcripts across a massive thread.

If you regularly have to post images with well over 1,500 characters of text in them, you could move elsewhere in the Fediverse that offers more characters, but that's still federated with Mastodon. Examples:
  • Misskey has a hard-coded limit of 3,000 characters.
  • Sharkey has a configurable limit that defaults to 3,000 characters.
  • Pleroma and Akkoma have configurable limits that default to 5,000 characters.
  • Friendica and Hubzilla (I'm commenting from the latter right now) are limited to over 16.7 million characters by their databases.
  • (streams) (where I post my images nowadays) and Forte are limited to over 24 million characters.
On all of these, you could put text transcripts into the post text body and maybe mention in the alt-text that the texts in the images are transcribed in the post itself.

The downside of this, however, is that your posts will exceed 500 characters. And this means you'll lose a whole lot of reach. There are lots and lots of Mastodon users who block everyone who ever posts over 500 characters at once at first strike because they want Mastodon/the Fediverse to be and remain a 100% pure microblogging "service" with no more than 500 characters.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Pleroma #Akkoma #Misskey #Sharkey #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #CharacterLimitMeta #CWCharacterLimitMeta #500Characters
Netzgemeinde/Hubzilla

@Arnan It doesn't fit the timelines in the official Mastodon phone app. Which has the only Fediverse user interface out there that cannot fold longer posts in.

The Mastodon Web UI can do that. All third-party Mastodon apps can do that. The Web UIs of just about the whole rest of the Fediverse from Pleroma and Misskey to Friendica and Hubzilla can do that. Phone apps for stuff that isn't Mastodon can do that.

Only the haphazardly developed official Mastodon app can't do that because it's geared towards a Fediverse with only 500 characters, a Fediverse of a kind that has never existed.

Mastodon is not the reference implementation of the Fediverse. And the official Mastodon app is not the reference implementation of Mastodon apps, much less of Fediverse apps. It only exists for there to be something official named "Mastodon" in the Apple App Store and the Google Play Store.

Just because Mastodon tossed out a lack-lustre app in 2022 for those who absolutely need something named "Mastodon" on their phones to access the Fediverse, doesn't mean that Fediverse software that has existed for almost six years longer than Mastodon and twelve years longer than that app must adapt to the existence of that app and cut down its character limit from 16,777,215 to 500 for all those who can't use Mastodon through something with another name on it than "Mastodon".

By the way: Mastodon's way of cutting longer posts up into tiny chunks of no more than 500 characters goes onto the nerves of users of Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp-JS, Iceshrimp.NET, Sharkey, CherryPick, GoToSocial, snac, Hollo, Socialhome, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams), Forte and others. But they are not allowed to complain about that, much less tell Mastodon users who do that to move someplace that offers them more characters.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #MastodonApp #MastodonApps #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #CharacterLimitMeta #CWCharacterLimitMeta #500Characters
Netzgemeinde/Hubzilla

When I describe my images, I do so under a few assumptions.

One: My audience is not limited to my following contacts. It's absolutely everyone who comes across any of my posts.

It isn't sufficient to make my posts accessible to those who have chosen to follow me. I must make them just as accessible to a random stranger who receives them after they've been boosted a dozen times over. I must make them just as accessible to a random stranger who stumbles upon them on the public timeline of whatever server they're on.

Two: If an element in an image is mentioned, it must also be described visually.

Blind or visually-impaired people always need to know what something in my images looks like. This goes doubly for my typical original images; I mean, how are they supposed to know what something looks like in a specific 3-D virtual world?

So if there's a building in one of my images, and I mention that this building is there, I also have to give a visual description of it. A full, detailed description.

If there's an image in one of my images, e.g. a preview image on a teleporter that shows the place where the teleporter would take me, I have to fully describe that image. An image in my image that doesn't even take up 200 pixels in my image. (Something that I've refused to do in my longest image description so far because that would have led me to going at least four levels deep: describing loads of infinitely small images in several dozen infinitely small images in an image in my image.)

In fact, this isn't an assumption. I have written confirmation for it. I can't find it right now, otherwise I'd share it here, but I have it somewhere.

Three: Image descriptions must always deliver all information that someone may need right away.

Not everyone wants to ask for a description of a certain detail in an image. Not everyone wants to ask for an explanation of what they don't understand or what they're unfamiliar with. Having to look things up yourself isn't much better. Some may go as far as likening not having an image description that contains everything they need to know to not having any image description.

By the way: It's a fact that some Mastodon users consider linking to external information ableist because linked websites aren't necessarily sufficiently accessible themselves. Instead of linking to information, the information must go into the post itself. (And I can't even use any character limit as an excuse not to do that because my "limit" is over 16.7 million.)

In other words, the only way for me not to be ableist is to give any and all information that anyone out there may require in my image post immediately.

Of course, this will clash with the demand by other Mastodon users (or maybe even some of the same) to never post more than 500 characters at once. But I can't do both. And I've never read anywhere that posting more than 500 characters is allegedly ableist.

Four: Someone somewhere out there may be interested in even small details in my image. And they may not be sighted.

Maybe you aren't. But someone somewhere out there may be. And they matter every bit as much as you or everyone else.

If they need a full description of all details, regardless of why, I have to deliver it. Immediately. See above.

Five: Any and all text within the borders of the image must be transcribed verbatim, no exception.

Most importantly, this even extends to text that's unreadable in the image if I can read and/or source it.

The assumptions further up apply here as well: If I mention it (the text in this case, and be it as part of the visual description of something else like a teleporter), then I must describe (as in transcribe) it. And someone somewhere out there may be interested in it.

If this means that I have to transcribe not one or two, but 20, 30, 40 bits of text in one image, then so be it, so are the rules.

Just because nobody on Mastodon does it, doesn't mean they're doing it right, and I'm doing it wrong. Maybe they don't know what that unreadable text says. Maybe they don't know that someone wants to know what's written there.

Six: All images must have an accurate and sufficiently detailed proper alt-text.

I can spend two days, morning to evening, working on an image description of 60,000 characters. 10,000 words. Three hours worth of reading. I can put the whole thing into the same post as the image. As in the post text body. As opposed to the alt-text for which this description is way too long.

But if the image in the post doesn't have an actual alt-text (and, again, it doesn't because the image description is in the post text itself), Mastodon's alt-text police is likely and fully justified to sanction me regardless.

So no matter how long and detailed and well-researched the long image description in the post is, I still have to distill an additional, shorter image description for the alt-text from it. And I have to do so without cutting too much information. Ideally, without cutting any information. If any of my images need a long description in the post, they need two descriptions, the long one in the post, the shorter one in the alt-text.

Leaving the several dozen individual text transcripts out of the description for the alt-text is risky already because text transcripts belong into the alt-text.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #500Characters #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Ableist #Ableism #AbleismMeta #CWAbleismMeta #Inclusion #Inclusivity #A11y #Accessibility
Hubzilla.de

When I describe my images, I do so under a few assumptions.

One: My audience is not limited to my following contacts. It's absolutely everyone who comes across any of my posts.

It isn't sufficient to make my posts accessible to those who have chosen to follow me. I must make them just as accessible to a random stranger who receives them after they've been boosted a dozen times over. I must make them just as accessible to a random stranger who stumbles upon them on the public timeline of whatever server they're on.

Two: If an element in an image is mentioned, it must also be described visually.

Blind or visually-impaired people always need to know what something in my images looks like. This goes doubly for my typical original images; I mean, how are they supposed to know what something looks like in a specific 3-D virtual world?

So if there's a building in one of my images, and I mention that this building is there, I also have to give a visual description of it. A full, detailed description.

If there's an image in one of my images, e.g. a preview image on a teleporter that shows the place where the teleporter would take me, I have to fully describe that image. An image in my image that doesn't even take up 200 pixels in my image. (Something that I've refused to do in my longest image description so far because that would have led me to going at least four levels deep: describing loads of infinitely small images in several dozen infinitely small images in an image in my image.)

In fact, this isn't an assumption. I have written confirmation for it. I can't find it right now, otherwise I'd share it here, but I have it somewhere.

Three: Image descriptions must always deliver all information that someone may need right away.

Not everyone wants to ask for a description of a certain detail in an image. Not everyone wants to ask for an explanation of what they don't understand or what they're unfamiliar with. Having to look things up yourself isn't much better. Some may go as far as likening not having an image description that contains everything they need to know to not having any image description.

By the way: It's a fact that some Mastodon users consider linking to external information ableist because linked websites aren't necessarily sufficiently accessible themselves. Instead of linking to information, the information must go into the post itself. (And I can't even use any character limit as an excuse not to do that because my "limit" is over 16.7 million.)

In other words, the only way for me not to be ableist is to give any and all information that anyone out there may require in my image post immediately.

Of course, this will clash with the demand by other Mastodon users (or maybe even some of the same) to never post more than 500 characters at once. But I can't do both. And I've never read anywhere that posting more than 500 characters is allegedly ableist.

Four: Someone somewhere out there may be interested in even small details in my image. And they may not be sighted.

Maybe you aren't. But someone somewhere out there may be. And they matter every bit as much as you or everyone else.

If they need a full description of all details, regardless of why, I have to deliver it. Immediately. See above.

Five: Any and all text within the borders of the image must be transcribed verbatim, no exception.

Most importantly, this even extends to text that's unreadable in the image if I can read and/or source it.

The assumptions further up apply here as well: If I mention it (the text in this case, and be it as part of the visual description of something else like a teleporter), then I must describe (as in transcribe) it. And someone somewhere out there may be interested in it.

If this means that I have to transcribe not one or two, but 20, 30, 40 bits of text in one image, then so be it, so are the rules.

Just because nobody on Mastodon does it, doesn't mean they're doing it right, and I'm doing it wrong. Maybe they don't know what that unreadable text says. Maybe they don't know that someone wants to know what's written there.

Six: All images must have an accurate and sufficiently detailed proper alt-text.

I can spend two days, morning to evening, working on an image description of 60,000 characters. 10,000 words. Three hours worth of reading. I can put the whole thing into the same post as the image. As in the post text body. As opposed to the alt-text for which this description is way too long.

But if the image in the post doesn't have an actual alt-text (and, again, it doesn't because the image description is in the post text itself), Mastodon's alt-text police is likely and fully justified to sanction me regardless.

So no matter how long and detailed and well-researched the long image description in the post is, I still have to distill an additional, shorter image description for the alt-text from it. And I have to do so without cutting too much information. Ideally, without cutting any information. If any of my images need a long description in the post, they need two descriptions, the long one in the post, the shorter one in the alt-text.

Leaving the several dozen individual text transcripts out of the description for the alt-text is risky already because text transcripts belong into the alt-text.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #500Characters #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Ableist #Ableism #AbleismMeta #CWAbleismMeta #Inclusion #Inclusivity #A11y #Accessibility
Netzgemeinde/Hubzilla

This decentralized model of social media strives to pass the message of how empowering people to be the media is a benefit to all. 90% of passive audience read a continuous stream of non-sense by uninformed, uneducated, charlatans who have failed to even do a 5' online search before they speak on a subject.

So I am wondering whether this newly developed freedom of flooding the brains with inaccuracies, fallacies, conspiratorial theories, memes about serious matters, is actually of collective benefit. Not that corporate or state media hasn't done much of the same for decades, but at least we had a narrow selection of trustworthy and known bias media we can rely on.

An example of English based media for near a century of responsible reporting? The Nation.
Now it is one source of a million others that raise a left flag.

#fediverse the federation of #neoliberal private owners/dictators, of servers they can censor, delete, block users without having to present a reason.

#mastodon
Screw your #500characterLimit mastodon devs you will never be like your idol, Musk no matter how hard you try to outcompete in stupidity!

Idiots think they can explain something in #500characters meanwhile a/v media is unlimited, like they are X or MSN corporate competitors.

If we can not affect or change "our media" why are we reproducing the fallacy of being able to change anything else in the world. We deserve the fascist state we are living under as obedient slaves.

@RS, Author, Novelist, Prosaist Yup. Mastodon clings hard to being purist, minimalist, old-school, original-gangsta microblogging. It's a miracle actually that Mastodon 4.0, released in October, 2022, introduced the displaying of some text formatting.

It says a lot that the character limit of 500 is hard-coded. It is not configurable. Digging into the source and modifying a file that'll be overwritten by git upon the next upgrade is not configuration, it's a fork. Also, Mastodon apparently keeps changing the way of raising the character limit, probably to keep admins from diverging from The Mastodon Way.

There is no technological reason within the Fediverse itself to limit posts to this length.

The software that I'm posting through is older than Mastodon by almost four years. It has been what it is now for ten months longer than Mastodon has existed. It was the first Fediverse software to adopt ActivityPub, two months before Mastodon. And, unlike Mastodon, it plays ActivityPub by the book as far as possible/feasible.

Still, it has a character limit of, wait for it, 16,777,215. That's the maximum size of the database field for the post text. These characters include alt-texts because images are embedded into posts by hotlinking to them rather than being file attachments, but they do not include summaries (= Mastodon CWs) because they've got their own database field.

Not only is it possible to practically not have a character limit at all, but it has actually been done, and it's fully compatible with Mastodon (only that Mastodon rejects posts with over 100,000 characters AFAIK, another arbitrary design decision which makes even less sense).

CC: @Cory Doctorow

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Hubzilla #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #500Characters
Cory Doctorow (@[email protected])

100K Posts, 964 Following, 74.2K Followers · By Cory Doctorow (GPG 0xBF3D9110957E5F4C) @[email protected]. Archived at pluralistic.net I post long threads. If you don't like these in your timeline but want to read them, I suggest unfollowing me here and subscribing to my RSS, or my newsletter, or any of my various long-form feeds. Links at https://pluralistic.net.

Mamot - Le Mastodon de La Quadrature du Net
@C.Suthorn :prn: And note: this toot has more than 500 characters, but comes from mastodon (as you can see), in case you didn't know that toots on mastodon can have more than 500 characters.
I know that. But I also know that not exactly few Mastodon users completely freak out when they see something longer than 500 characters.

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #CharacterLimit #500Characters
Netzgemeinde/Hubzilla

@utopiArte I wasn't only posting this with raw technology in mind. I was also thinking about cultural differences that arose from the technological differences.

Friendica and Hubzilla are technologically very different from Mastodon. Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) users are rather used to that. They try to cope with it the best they can, although this alone brings its own bunch of issues with itself.

Mastodon users, on the other hand, are not used to it. Many of them have come to Mastodon from Twitter over the last two years, believing that Mastodon is only one Web site. And pretty much all of them, every last one of them, came to Mastodon, believing that the Fediverse that everyone talks about is Mastodon. And nothing else.

Those who have invited them to Mastodon have not told them that Mastodon is connected to things that aren't Mastodon, much less that Mastodon is connected to things that are very much not Mastodon.

Nearly all Twitter refugees on Mastodon have spent their first several months on Mastodon in this belief. They've settled into and gotten used to a Fediverse that's only Mastodon.

Many, not all of them, but many have since found out that there are things in the Fediverse that are very different from Mastodon. For not exactly few, it was a disturbing, if not outright traumatising experience to see that some Fediverse users can post over 500 characters at once. Or that some Fediverse users can easily "quote-toot" Mastodon toots, using something which is used on 𝕏 to harass members of marginalised minorities.

They didn't want that. They still don't want that. They want to make it go away again, so disturbing is it.

By and by, at least some Mastodon users face other differences between Mastodon on the one side and things like Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) on the other side. For example, what the way these three handle conversations means in practice for users of Mastodon which doesn't have a concept of conversations. Or that Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) users do not react when someone on Mastodon mentions them out of the blue. Everyone on Mastodon would notice it, so it's beyond a Mastodon user's comprehension that Friendica and Hubzilla users don't notice it by default.

So on the one hand, Mastodon users are increasingly stressed out by Friendica being Friendica and Hubzilla being Hubzilla. They ask themselves: "Why did they make everything so different from Mastodon? Why couldn't they have made it all just like Mastodon in the first place?"

It's incomprehensible to them that Friendica and Hubzilla were both made before Mastodon. For how can something in the Fediverse possible pre-date Eugen Rochko's invention of the Fediverse? It's also incomprehensible to them that something in the Fediverse can be something else than a Twitter clone. Or they simply don't know how Facebook, which Friendica aims to be an alternative to, works differently from Twitter as well.

On the other hand, Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) users are increasingly stressed out by Mastodon users trying to force Mastodon's culture upon them, along with Mastodon's limitations. Not few Mastodon users try to make Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) behave more like Mastodon by putting pressure on their users to a) always do everything the Mastodon way and b) stop making use of features that Mastodon doesn't have.

If you've never come across a Mastodon user complaining about a post or comment of yours being too long because you've exceeded the holy limit of 500 characters, then I'm very certain that you will.

Food for thought: This entire conflict would disappear with a split. Mastodon users would be spared from utterly non-Mastodon things. And non-Mastodon uers would be spared from demands to stop making use of 90% of all features they have at hand just because Mastodon doesn't have them.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #500Characters #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate
Netzgemeinde/Hubzilla

@Larry Garfield @Renaud Chaput In this case, the handling of long-form content should be configurable per account.

The settings could be:
  • Render fully (default; what the devs of Hubzilla and (streams) want)
  • Always link (what Mastodon does with Article-type objects)
  • Link if title or subject is available, otherwise render fully
  • Link if title or subject is available, otherwise block
  • Block everything over 500 characters

Maybe there could be an additional setting for formatted content in general:
  • Render fully (default)
  • Render partially (the Mastodon 4 way right now)
  • Remove all formatting (what Mastodon up until 3 did)
  • Block

#Long #LongPost #LongPosts #LongPostMeta #CWLong #CWLongPost #CWLongPostMeta #500Characters #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #Friendica #Hubzilla #TextFormatting #RichText
Netzgemeinde/Hubzilla